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Old 01-01-2013, 12:16 PM   #271
ttpete
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
And third, of course there are Germans who are not happy with the German mindset. Some of us really adore the americon love for freedom. But still, there are these differences in how people here and there think. On a German forum this discussion would be completely different and everyone standing up for such a personal freedom would be flamed harshly. That's not good, but it is a fact.
That's because the average person has been thoroughly brainwashed into believing that personal freedom must be subordinated to the "public good", whatever that is. It's a product of the form of government. What surprises me is how quickly people forget the past.
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Old 01-01-2013, 01:59 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by BobbySands View Post
Near every OSHA reg is written in blood. Behind every helmet law is a lot of emotional suffering and terrble, avoidable injuries.

Anyone who does not understand that--simply put-- does not want to understand that.

...............snip
Life is not fair
.

The people who love us will suffer for our poor decisions
.

Bad things happen to good people for no reason
.


Anyone who does not understand that--simply put-- does not want to understand that.



The problem is not a lack of laws or monetary costs to the taxpayers. The problem is the mandate that society insulate him and his family from the consequences of his decision.
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Old 01-01-2013, 02:00 PM   #273
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Happy New year to all!

Quote:
Originally Posted by #46 View Post
In Canada, all provinces and territories have mandatory helmet laws, and have been for years now.

Why can't all states just impose mandatory helmet laws, and put an end to the discussion once and for all.
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." The 10th

Exactly one year ago today the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th were "repealed" or more accurately transgressed by a treasonous legislative and executive (NDAA). So yes, the precedent has been set. Up to half of the people are willing to acquiesce if polls are to be believed.

A camper rode his 50 cc a quarter mile to the showers at 3 mph and got whacked for $250 plus license suspended and car insurance raised. Another, while taking his scoot out of winter storage, rolled down his driveway to bump start it. The moment the front tire past the curb a leo wrote ticket for no no helmet then impounded for no insurance.

A young man crossed the boundary of his farm. His lights were off mid-day in a clear field. A leo who had been spying on him with binoculars from half a mile away felt it necessary to shoot the un-armed rider who protested the harassment.

Risk taking associated with the dangers of freedom such as riding helmet-less can to some extent be offset with better toilet training. Perhaps de-emphasizing the baby-sitting function of public schools and a parent licensing would serve us better.

"Is it safe?"
Find out here (1:43)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dG5Qk-jB0D4
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Old 01-01-2013, 04:00 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
Wow.

I used to work in a refinery that was attached to a paper mill. When someone died in the mill, we had to bury a roll of paper - there was no body as such to recover. The usual reason for death in the mill was failure to attach a line to the gantry. To explain: If you did not secure yourself to the scaffolding above the machinery, you could fall off of it and into the machines, or the pulper, or whatever you were working on. It may seem perfectly obvious to you and I that one should take the brief second to click that carabiner onto the steel, but for a surprisingly large number of people, the thought never occurs. Because "I will only be up there for a minute" or ""I can reach it no problem" or any number of other reasons. It's not just OSHA that sets those regs, it's the employers who have to pay out when an employee dies in a preventable accident, and then have to train new workers to that level of expertise. I fully assure you, that if someone you know died in a preventable industrial accident, you'd be clamouring for regs. I've seen the hardest-core non-union people turn on a dime when someone's hand got crushed in a press or someone fell on a slick surface or quite a few other such "accidents". "Someone should have done something to prevent that!!!" is the usual call to arms. Well, someone did do something: we call it OSHA. ...
I did not in any way argue against being safe. As with the helmets, where I advocate wearing one for safety, but not the forcing of it upon people who wish to choose otherwise -- I think that taking good safety precautions at work is very important, but that government mandates are not the best way to do this. I've seen a lot of stupidity created, and even dangerous situations created, by safety regulations that get passed and must be enforced under all circumstances, whether or not they really are best applicable to any given circumstance.

I bolded the part up there that makes more sense. If the employer creates a dangerous situation, and does not make the appropriate safety precautions, it can and should be held liable. If the safety precautions are available and the worker declines to make use of them, the employer is not liable, although they are still out the costs of hiring/training, etc., so the employer has every right to require workers to use the safety provisions, and to discipline workers who don't.

I have spent the last 20 years working in an industry (medical manufacturing) in which safety is taken extremely seriously, and is practiced routinely (and voluntarily) at levels far higher than OSHA mandates, because it makes sense to do that when you are working with products to be implanted or injected into people, or live viruses and pathogens, or genotoxic or cytotoxic compounds, etc. We do this because it's smart. And sometimes the government and OSHA actually get in the way. One example was a facility being designed and built that was to work with and contain some quite dangerous compounds. It was to have a complex series of cascading room pressure to keep any airbourne contaminants from entering OR leaving the facility, with door interlocks to ensure these pressures were maintained under all conditions, and so on. However, fire regulations prohibited the door interlocks -- they demanded that in case of fire, people be allowed unimpeded exit regardless. Well, if you've got what we had in there, quite frankly, the risks of someone burning to death in a fire due to the door interlocks making it harder to get out was a FAR smaller risk than what could happen with an accident of containment.

I saw similar hazards created by safety legislation that woudl allow of no exceptions 25 years ago when I was working in the nuclear industry as well.

Part of what makes this so hard an issue to figure out well is that we have become SO accustomed to government being involved in everything that a great many people no longer can even imagine anything getting done without government force being applied. When a libertarian argues against government force in a situation or issue, it deson't mean we are advocating against the issue being done at all -- just that we don't think coercion is the best or most ethical way to do it.

PhilB
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PhilB screwed with this post 01-01-2013 at 04:11 PM
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Old 01-01-2013, 04:01 PM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kommando View Post
Who cares? To most of us freedom-proponent Americans, people like you appear to be brainwashed to the German way of doing things...make a law for every little issue in society. Unfortunately, due to relentless fear-mongering, a number of Americans now seem to have a similar mindset.

There are different ways to accomplish the same objective. Throwing away more and more freedom in this country is NOT the answer. Many people have died (violent deaths ahead of their time) to secure the few freedoms we have left, as well as the ones we've already lost, and the precedent of fear-manipulated citizens so easily relinquishing former freedoms has endangered the rest of our freedoms. We are now "less American" for it, with fear mongers leading the way.
+1!

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Old 01-01-2013, 04:14 PM   #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMZMZM View Post
Life is not fair
.

The people who love us will suffer for our poor decisions
.

Bad things happen to good people for no reason
.


Anyone who does not understand that--simply put-- does not want to understand that.



The problem is not a lack of laws or monetary costs to the taxpayers. The problem is the mandate that society insulate him and his family from the consequences of his decision.


PhilB
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Old 01-01-2013, 04:38 PM   #277
Schlug
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMZMZM View Post
Life is not fair
.

The people who love us will suffer for our poor decisions
.

Bad things happen to good people for no reason
.


Anyone who does not understand that--simply put-- does not want to understand that.



The problem is not a lack of laws or monetary costs to the taxpayers. The problem is the mandate that society insulate him and his family from the consequences of his decision.

I agree with this. Sadly, that's not what we're discussing here. Not at all.

And I know you're not arguing laws haven't been enacted that have saved countless-- literally countless lives.
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Old 01-01-2013, 04:45 PM   #278
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philb i've said it before on this thread. clear concise thinking. i only wish i could express my thoughts as eloquently as you. i just tend to get mad at people too stupid to see what is happening around them and to ignorant of history to know why it makes a difference.
somewhat on topic. according to mn. dmv. mn. had 42 mc. deaths in 2012 and 40 pedestrian deaths. should the state mandate helmets for anyone walking near a street or highway?
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Old 01-01-2013, 04:45 PM   #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
I

EDIT: Phil ranting about OSHA

For every small and anecdotal reference to OSHA being a somewhat awkward and cumbersome agency, there are overwhelming numbers of OSHA helping to protect the rights of the workers.

Quite honestly, it appears as if you're government phobic. Even in instances when people won't protect themselves from a clear, easily avoidable danger or the industry might be shown to be so dangerous that outide pressure has to be exerted to keep people safe.

Anyone who thinks OSHA isn't overwhelmingly beneficial, as I said before, doesn't want to believe it. Based on ideology and not lived experiences, data, or even common sense.

I hope that's not you.

PS. the forum would be a lot easier to read if you didn't quote the entire post of the person you're going to '+1' if you really feel the need to use bandwidth by posting '+1's.
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"So what makes this protest different is that you're set to die, Bobby?"
--May well come to that.
"You start a hunger strike to protest for what you believe in. You don't start already determined to die or am I missing somethin' here?"
-- It's in their hands. Our message is clear. They're seeing our determination.
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Old 01-01-2013, 04:51 PM   #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerstu View Post
.
somewhat on topic. according to mn. dmv. mn. had 42 mc. deaths in 2012 and 40 pedestrian deaths. should the state mandate helmets for anyone walking near a street or highway?
Did you employ the Supreme Courts proof test about whether requiring helmets for every pedestrian would be overly burdensome or haven't you read that part of the thread?

Your post is simply an inflammatory waste time and makes the author look foolish.

Really? How many motorcycly riders in a given year vs. how many pedestrians?

That's just intentionally sloppy or abdication of reason and logic all together.
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"So what makes this protest different is that you're set to die, Bobby?"
--May well come to that.
"You start a hunger strike to protest for what you believe in. You don't start already determined to die or am I missing somethin' here?"
-- It's in their hands. Our message is clear. They're seeing our determination.
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Old 01-01-2013, 04:52 PM   #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttpete View Post
That's because the average person has been thoroughly brainwashed into believing that personal freedom must be subordinated to the "public good", whatever that is. It's a product of the form of government. What surprises me is how quickly people forget the past.

Seriously?
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"So what makes this protest different is that you're set to die, Bobby?"
--May well come to that.
"You start a hunger strike to protest for what you believe in. You don't start already determined to die or am I missing somethin' here?"
-- It's in their hands. Our message is clear. They're seeing our determination.
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Old 01-01-2013, 06:47 PM   #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerstu
.
somewhat on topic. according to mn. dmv. mn. had 42 mc. deaths in 2012 and 40 pedestrian deaths. should the state mandate helmets for anyone walking near a street or highway?

sadly, the part of bobbysands brain that processes sarcasm seems to be missing. the rest of it doesn't seem to be wired to code either.
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:12 PM   #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbySands View Post
For every small and anecdotal reference to OSHA being a somewhat awkward and cumbersome agency, there are overwhelming numbers of OSHA helping to protect the rights of the workers.

Quite honestly, it appears as if you're government phobic. Even in instances when people won't protect themselves from a clear, easily avoidable danger or the industry might be shown to be so dangerous that outide pressure has to be exerted to keep people safe.

Anyone who thinks OSHA isn't overwhelmingly beneficial, as I said before, doesn't want to believe it. Based on ideology and not lived experiences, data, or even common sense.

I hope that's not you.

PS. the forum would be a lot easier to read if you didn't quote the entire post of the person you're going to '+1' if you really feel the need to use bandwidth by posting '+1's.
Government is the most dangerous thing humans have ever created. It's foolish NOT to be "government-phobic". And your "anyone who thinks ..." argument is bullshit, just as such a statement always is. Pointing guns at people isn't the only way to get anything done.

Quite aside from the irony that you and yours are so consistently against people having guns and pointing them at anyone for any reason, even to save their own lives -- yet yet see the solution to EVERY damn problem to be for the government to point guns at people and make them do what you want them to.

If this forum had a "like" or a "thanks" button, as many do now, that would be easier. But I usually quote the post in question because it's worth pointing out, and says something similar to what I would have said in the same space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerstu View Post
philb i've said it before on this thread. clear concise thinking. i only wish i could express my thoughts as eloquently as you. i just tend to get mad at people too stupid to see what is happening around them and to ignorant of history to know why it makes a difference.
somewhat on topic. according to mn. dmv. mn. had 42 mc. deaths in 2012 and 40 pedestrian deaths. should the state mandate helmets for anyone walking near a street or highway?
Thanks.

PhilB
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:34 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
Government is the most dangerous thing humans have ever created. It's foolish NOT to be "government-phobic". the solution to EVERY damn problem to be for the government to point guns at people and make them do what you want them to.

Quoted for posterity. Well, Phil, it's been nice. But I'm due back on earth right about now.
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--May well come to that.
"You start a hunger strike to protest for what you believe in. You don't start already determined to die or am I missing somethin' here?"
-- It's in their hands. Our message is clear. They're seeing our determination.
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Old 01-01-2013, 08:41 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by farmerstu View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerstu

sadly, the part of bobbysands brain that processes sarcasm seems to be missing. the rest of it doesn't seem to be wired to code either.



And just to show solidarity with Mr sands. +1
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