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Old 12-13-2012, 04:38 PM   #151
Craneguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 390beretta View Post
It just never ceases to amaze me how quickly these potentially helpful posts turn into "pissing matches" and then of course, all of the "techies" chime in with their grafts. Jesus Christ on a raft! Learn to brake! Practice it! Use both brakes! (that's why they have two) If you do those three things, you might live to ride another day!
How dare you come around here talking sense. Moran!
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:51 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by anotherguy View Post
Oh. WERA and MARRC.


And now your just being ridiculous.
Yeah the flat tracking comment was ridiculous.
I do wera also.


So all you guys say that you do not use the full power of the front brake?
How do you know when the front brake is fully in use? Well seems to me it is when the rear tire is about to lift off? Right?

So if the rear tire is about to lift off and the rear brake is pressed. Well then it locks up. I can make up some physics equations if you listen to that better.
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:57 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by 390beretta View Post
It just never ceases to amaze me how quickly these potentially helpful posts turn into "pissing matches" and then of course, all of the "techies" chime in with their grafts. Jesus Christ on a raft! Learn to brake! Practice it! Use both brakes! (that's why they have two) If you do those three things, you might live to ride another day!
Yep....just vote with me. 3 stars on that one at least.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:11 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by crofrog View Post
The time is the same, the distance you travel is very different that little line was a quote from Kieth Code.

"In straight line braking, a locked-up front wheel feels the same at 100 mph as it does going 10 mph, but the skid mark is
longer."

-TWOW1, pg67

I do agree there is more gyro in the bike so the stability is higher but its not any more difficult to recover from otherwise i'd wreck my 200 in the woods all the fucking time.

Yeah go try that shit and tell me how it works out for you.


...and I'm talking about a street bike with a 24* rake and a foreward weight bias. Dirt is a different thing, you expect the front to push. If you get the front on an R6 CRB or whatnot sliding its a different beast.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:32 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by ParaMud View Post
snip..
So if the rear tire is about to lift off and the rear brake is pressed. Well then it locks up. snip..
And what exactly is the problem with that?

Look. In an emergency braking situation, and you're riding straight up, then there is no problem with the rear locking up. If it is still on the ground, there's not a whole lot of weight on it, as you have pointed out, and you're not going to slide out of control. It is still going to decrease your stopping distance, even if it is minor. If it is in the air, then there is no problem at all with the rear locked up.

Without reading all the bullshit in the thread, I kinda have the impression that you're trying to make the point that it is better to forget about the rear so that you can focus on the front, because otherwise you will put too much emphasis on the rear in an emergency. i think that perception is a fallacy.

I use both brakes all the time. (I also engine brake..., I will surely die!) By using both brakes all the time, you develop a feeling and a reflex that will actually save your ass in an emergency.

But don't listen to me, or anyone else. Keep teaching your loved ones how you think they should ride.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:49 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Wakizashi View Post
Thanks. This is really educational and useful. And I think it ends the argument.
Except it doesn't. It's over simplification, static equation and because many readers will not read or understand it.

For one, with modern tires your deacceleration is greater than 1 g because your traction coefficient is greater than 1. It means more time to do a stoppie. The real world is dynamic. Bike's center of gravity depends on how you use the brakes during the braking, friction of coefficent does depend on the weight over your tires, friction of the surface is variable... etc...

However, it gives the basics. Thanks for posting it.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:56 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by uraberg View Post
And what exactly is the problem with that?

Look. In an emergency braking situation, and you're riding straight up, then there is no problem with the rear locking up. If it is still on the ground, there's not a whole lot of weight on it, as you have pointed out, and you're not going to slide out of control. It is still going to decrease your stopping distance, even if it is minor. If it is in the air, then there is no problem at all with the rear locked up.

Without reading all the bullshit in the thread, I kinda have the impression that you're trying to make the point that it is better to forget about the rear so that you can focus on the front, because otherwise you will put too much emphasis on the rear in an emergency. i think that perception is a fallacy.

I use both brakes all the time. (I also engine brake..., I will surely die!) By using both brakes all the time, you develop a feeling and a reflex that will actually save your ass in an emergency.

But don't listen to me, or anyone else. Keep teaching your loved ones how you think they should ride.
I take losing control of one of your tires to be very serious.
So you expect the beginnner to lose control of the rear tire. So to do another move after emergency braking, you have to gear the rear tire under control. Before you can make an emergency swerve.

Getting a lock up tire to become unlocked, upsets the chasis of the motorcycle. Motorcycles are meant to be ridden smoothly.
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:47 PM   #158
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It seemed to me that you expect the beginner to lose control of the rear tire, and that your solution was to train a beginner to never use the rear brake. You're advocating to forego one of the instruments that will help you stop altogether.

I think that is a bad decision. I think it is better to be trained to use both brakes from the get go, with proper instructions as to the limitations of all systems. I mean surely you will tell her how to use the rear and the clutch in a tight low speed turn?

With regards to upsetting the suspension, This is mostly happening when getting hard on the fronts. I like to engine brake part way through a turn, as it does not change the geometry of the bike all that much. Actually, sometimes i drag the rear brake a little, while keeping a slightly positive throttle to take out the slack in the drivetrain.

The point is that in order to become the best rider you can possibly be, you need to be intricately familiar with all systems on the bike.
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:39 PM   #159
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True.

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Originally Posted by GoGoGavin41 View Post
If you aren't, then you're not.
Precisely. Sure you've got to make sure you've got the front near its limit but while doing that there's no reason you shouldn't have the back working a bit as well, I'm sure it shaves a few feet off of your braking distance. I've been in near emergencies and can feel the rear locking up and let off it a hair.
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Old 12-14-2012, 12:49 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by ParaMud View Post
So all you guys say that you do not use the full power of the front brake?
How do you know when the front brake is fully in use? Well seems to me it is when the rear tire is about to lift off? Right?
Of course I use the full power of my front brake. It contributes up to 86% of the maximum braking power of my sports touring bike, as tested by professionals. I know it because I feel the ABS kicking in.

BUT tests have shown that about two thirds even of the experienced riders do only use 50...80% of the full braking power of their (non-ABS) bikes when they're prompted to demonstrate an emergency braking under controlled conditions! Less than 5% reach decelerations at which it is likely to lift the rear, if possible at all!
One way or the other, we are talking about 10...20% of lost braking power if we advice not to use the rear brake.
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Old 12-14-2012, 01:58 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
One way or the other, we are talking about 10...20% of lost braking power if we advice not to use the rear brake.
This varies.

Its 10 or 20% initially yes, but once you are on the binders to the point that you are unloading the rear tire, that value is significantly less. I usually only hit the rear brake for a split second and then leave the clutch out (I also stay in very low gears in town) and let the engine do the rear.

With the 675 that has very little back torque anyway, this is enough to that rear will start chattering because the tire is going slower than the road, adding any brake would be a full lock, which is a bit more difficult to get everything back in line.

Of course, this also varies with the bikes, both of mine have super sport geometry (a 2000 Speed Triple has the same rake and less offset than a 2003 GSXR for reference).

A Touring or Sport Touring rig is a slightly different technique all of the weight isn't over the front tire.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:36 AM   #162
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Of course it varies, that's why I said "10...20%". In my case, 51% of the bike's weight is on the front! But the cog height/wheelbase ratio is low.
But it doesn't really vary through the braking process. It varies with bike and rider and as I stated above only a very humble amount of riders is proficient enough to brake that hard to lift the rear, even if their bike is able to do so.

In addition you talk about engine braking, but for a beginner it's much more difficult to coordinate an engine-chattered rear and then pull the clutch when the revs drop to avoid a complete and uncontrolled lock because your engine stalls, instead of just pulling the clutch from the first moment and feather the rear brake.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:59 AM   #163
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Has anyone mentioned the effect of tyre pressures on the whole situation as yet??


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Old 12-14-2012, 04:42 AM   #164
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Nope. What's a tyre anyway?
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:44 AM   #165
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My 2 cents.........

Quote:
Originally Posted by 390beretta View Post
It just never ceases to amaze me how quickly these potentially helpful posts turn into "pissing matches" and then of course, all of the "techies" chime in with their grafts. Jesus Christ on a raft! Learn to brake! Practice it! Use both brakes! (that's why they have two) If you do those three things, you might live to ride another day!
Absolutly true.............. learn to use both brakes..........they arent just for decoration . I use both brakes to varying degrees when riding on or off road.
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