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Old 12-14-2012, 08:55 PM   #196
ParaMud OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Idle View Post
Wow.


I just read the whole thread and there was no mention of the bike in question.

On a sidenote, I never knew MotoGP bikes have linked brakes, so that's how they can dangle their feet when braking.

I've just a few ? for you Paramud.

What kind of bike is your GF riding? How long has she been riding. How long have you been riding? What happened to make you absolutely terrified of locking your rear wheel?

Your above statements about locking up the rear are comical. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be mean, but c'mon! You really need to go ride when it's wet out. Or dewey, or areas with dirt on the road. Wait until it's time for a new rear tire and go have fun skidding. Start out on the white T in STOP at the stopsign. It makes a mark, and a squeak.

A mc brake is not power assisted, and releases the very nano-second you pick your foot up. Clutch in is a given, and a natural occurrence when practiced enough.

Practice, it takes a lot of practice, but locking the rear brake is fun when you start to get a feel for it. In the dirt or on wet pavement I will lock the rear over and over again just for.....fun and practice.

I eff around in parking lots skidding to a stop with the rear while making u-turns. I'm not training to be a stunta, just wanted to get comfortable with the rear skidding, and skidding around. I'm not completly doing a 180° skid yet, but that's my goal. To do a skidding 180, come to a stop and wheelie away without putting a foot down. I do gymkhana type drills also. It's fun and relatively risk free grinding footpegs at 15 mph.

I are on a motard and only have 10,000 miles behind me, I'm still learning.

Anehoo, about not using the rear brake in a panic stop. Please somebody shoot this myth down, I just thought of it. Myth is that if you don't touch the rear brake in a panic stop, your engine is still giving you propulsion untill the "front brake lifts the rear off the pavement." Or until the clutch gets pulled.

Yeah, because pro's and beginners alike lif the rear off the pavement when a car pulls out unexpectedly.
The motogp bikes don't have linked brakes. They are saying that they all have rear thumb brakes. I just saw one at the IMS show, but didnt look close enough.

She is on a Ducati Monster and a KLR 650. She has been riding for over a year. Commutes to school and has done some trips. Would say around 10k miles total.

I have been riding for, I guess 5 years now. I raced my sv650 for the last year and did pretty good.

I am not terrified of locking the rear tire. I know its fine and you wont automatically fall down. I skid my rear from engine braking all the time.


But is it another factor when slowing. When the rear tire locks it doesnt just stay there, it sways back and forth. So if the tire is not perfectly aligned when you gain traction back, what happens?

It will upset the chassis.
An upset chasis will cause other issues and prevent as hard of emergency braking.

The only advice I gave my girlfriend, is.
1. Stay calm and be loose. Don't tighten up because everything will become harder.
2. Don't use the rear brake because in a emergency is will cause more problems. Of course she knows to use it in the rain, in low traction and offroad and going slow/..
3. Look where you want to go.
4. Be smooth



All her other riding was taught by MSF and a local private instructor out here in Cali.

She does ride off road.

As for the rear tire giving propulsion. It is not when you let off the throttle. Even when I had my fz1 in 6th gear, when you let off the throttle it stops pushing the bike forward.
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:14 PM   #197
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I don't think there is any hard fast rule you can apply to how to use the brakes on a motorcycle.
Be it road or track, racing leisure or commuting, every situation is different.
Then every rider is different in how they apply their skill based on their background of skill and experience.
Racing gives you insights on what a motorcycle can do over a person who has never pushed to the limits and beyond.
Just my 2c
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:14 PM   #198
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For mud, thanks for anwering my questions. I think you both should use both brakes in everyday street riding though.
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:27 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Idle View Post
For mud, thanks for anwering my questions. I think you both should use both brakes in everyday street riding though.
No problem, I am not saying I am 100% percent right, and I am sure you won't say you are 100% right. To many variables. That is the fun of the internet. So do what is comfortable and keep on riding.
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Old 12-15-2012, 05:16 AM   #200
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My rear brake is in play probably 99% of the time when stopping. It is covered and ready for use. By using it in virtually all braking situations I have learned how to use it. The 70/30 thing is pure BS. When in loose or slippery conditions it can be 0/100 front rear, when in extreme hard braking it can be 100/0. It all depends on the conditions, ranging anywhere in between, purely based on experience. Same is true with braking while leaned over in a corner. Pure experience, seat of the pants practice when a safety margin is available. That provides the knowledge when the need becomes required.

Besides when riding the dual sport the rear brake does aid in braking and when on the dual disc Zephyr the rear is far less needed.

I saw Nick Ienatsch demonstrate in a braking lesson showing full front only from 55, full rear only from 55, both brakes at 55, and finally full front at 55 - real hard. Obviously full front only stopped faster than rear only. Both brakes better than only front (with a comment that the rear was negligible in input, but still cut about a bike length off his stopping and not dispensable). The full real hard front brake obviously with him as a rider had the rear end about 2 feet in the air. But the thing was proper braking with both front and rear had the shortest stopping. Key point - using rear with front. Does he do it all the time? I doubt it, but I'm betting he does often enough and keeps the pedal covered when the possibility is there, to have the skill to use it in an adequate amount to make his stops shortest possible.

In other words, use them both most of the time to learn ot use both properly when needed. If the OP really wants to do the lesson right, do what Ienatsch did - have the girlfriend go out in a safe area, run up to speed then brake down rear brake only, do it again front brake only, then do it again with both. I'm guessing the last test will have the shortest stopping distance (or at least equal to front). Pretty simple.
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Old 12-15-2012, 05:54 AM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaMud View Post
The motogp bikes don't have linked brakes. They are saying that they all have rear thumb brakes. I just saw one at the IMS show, but didnt look close enough.

She is on a Ducati Monster and a KLR 650. She has been riding for over a year. Commutes to school and has done some trips. Would say around 10k miles total.

I have been riding for, I guess 5 years now. I raced my sv650 for the last year and did pretty good.

I am not terrified of locking the rear tire. I know its fine and you wont automatically fall down. I skid my rear from engine braking all the time.


But is it another factor when slowing. When the rear tire locks it doesnt just stay there, it sways back and forth. So if the tire is not perfectly aligned when you gain traction back, what happens?

It will upset the chassis.
An upset chasis will cause other issues and prevent as hard of emergency braking.

The only advice I gave my girlfriend, is.
1. Stay calm and be loose. Don't tighten up because everything will become harder.
2. Don't use the rear brake because in a emergency is will cause more problems. Of course she knows to use it in the rain, in low traction and offroad and going slow/..
3. Look where you want to go.
4. Be smooth




All her other riding was taught by MSF and a local private instructor out here in Cali.

She does ride off road.

As for the rear tire giving propulsion. It is not when you let off the throttle. Even when I had my fz1 in 6th gear, when you let off the throttle it stops pushing the bike forward.
Yep, I'm with you, that's good advice. (Though sum is easier said than done.)
Unlike the other internet heroes here, (Who can keep both wheels at the verge of locking anywhere, anytime.) I think it best to focus on the front too, and keep it on the verge of locking whilst threshold brake'in.
That KLR pig ain't gonna stop no matter wut ya do, so it's best ta ride that thang in such a way that she ain't gonna have ta stop too fast.
Good luck, keep ride'in & keep practice'in.
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Old 12-15-2012, 06:22 AM   #202
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Some of the comments here are horrifying......

or maybe it's cultural?

In Europe/the UK we're taught to use the front and rear together, with the front providing most of the braking power.
We're taught about the physics of braking. We have something called a CBT (compulsory basic training) where we have to demonstrate our braking skills (amountst other skills) before we're allowed on public roads. Failure to stop quick enough means no pass. The trainer has us do an emergency stop using only the rear, and measure it. The a stop using only the front, and that's measured. Then both brakes are used - 9 times out of 10 - the stopping distance with both brakes is less.

We're not Rossis. We've not got 1000's of miles behind us. Some of us have only been riding for 1 day. We're noobs fron the tops of our borrowed helmets to the soles of our walking boots and our bibs shine bright with fear ;p

But that's how we learn - both brakes. If you don't believe me, and this is the interweb, so I don't blame you, then go to a professional instructor - not a mate, not some guy around the corner but a professional and ask them.

Here are some UK facts for you - In general front brake pads wear out far quicker than the rear as they're used that much more. If they're used more (if the rear is wearing out quicker we usually look for a mechanical problem). Chicken strips have nothing to do with braking and often have contact with sand paper than the road. Pulling a stoppie doesn't mean you can brake quickly and safely in an emergency - it just means you can pull a stoppie.
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Old 12-15-2012, 06:40 AM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
The 70/30 thing is pure BS. When in loose or slippery conditions it can be 0/100 front rear, when in extreme hard braking it can be 100/0. It all depends on the conditions, ranging anywhere in between, purely based on experience.
braking power and weight distribution has nothing to do with surface

even on ice, your quickest stop requires front brake, you should learn to use it

70/30 becomes more important on ice
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Old 12-16-2012, 02:30 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SocalRob View Post
If you momentarily lock your front wheel you release the front brake some. You don't need to fall over. Your statement makes it sound like you do not practice true threshold front braking.
That's a tricky move. Especially when the reason the OP gave for his advice was to not use the *rear* because of the danger of locking it up. I do my very best to never lock up the front, because the instant that happens, you are not in control of your bike anymore. If you react fast enough, you may be able to *recover* control of your bike, but every tenth of a second you spend with your front locked up is a few *feet* of not being in control of your bike. Which is a bad thing.

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Old 12-16-2012, 02:37 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crofrog View Post
Or you over estimated the risk of riding, or took less than average risk.

Risk mitigation is the most effective riding stragety and if you're doing it right you should never have to "panic stop".

What is your high performance riding experience? And what's your experience on high performance bikes

I guess if you fuck up your downshift and miss the rev match that's the case.

please... that's non-sense.

HAHA. Please. Go do it. Go lock up the front, and then go lockup the front while hard on the rear tell me which time you find the pavement like a sack of shit instantly.

Have you preceeded beyond newb level? Most "advanced" riders leave the clutch out while they're braking unless they are actively engaged in rev matching, or stopped.
Ah, you have no idea what you are talking about, and no interest in having one. Your "stragety" is the non-sequitur. Good for you. I have no more use for your nonsense.

PhilB
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Old 12-16-2012, 02:47 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randyo View Post
braking power and weight distribution has nothing to do with surface

even on ice, your quickest stop requires front brake, you should learn to use it

70/30 becomes more important on ice
*shakes head in utter disbelief!*

Well, it just came to me, the perfect sig line... "I can't teach you to ride a motorcycle via the internet".

Jeebus. This thread makes my taint hurt.

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Old 12-16-2012, 03:02 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slartidbartfast View Post
So the OP is suggesting she not use it at all - and that will magically teach her to feather it as she gains experience? Perhaps she will suddenly wake up one day saying "I am no longer a beginner, I'm going to start using the rear brake."

It takes a few minutes to teach that skill to a total beginner - and they will get better at it with practice, just like everybody else.

All the idiots foaming at the mouth and ranting about braking on a sportbike, on smooth dry roads, or under race conditions, etc., have not merely missed the point, they've missed the entire concept.
+1. This.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anotherguy View Post
Damn. I expected more of this site. The ignorance in this thread is staggering. Thanks for reminding me why I often ride alone.

If you doubt the rear brake's contribution to stopping power try getting up to 140 or so and STOP HARD using only the front brake. The effect of the rear brake is more than a shorter stopping distance. It's CONTROL of the motorcycle and in a hard braking scenario is anything more important?
More good sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwalsh View Post
To be honest I sometimes use only one or the other brakes to slow and sometimes stop, but not often. Thing is, I've learned to use, and I know how to use, both in an emergency stop. It's saved my ass before.
Brake pads are cheap. Learning to use BOTH brakes is good.
Teaching a beginning rider to not use the rear brake is bad...and just plain stupid IMO...unless your teaching a squid wannabe.
And yet more.

PhilB
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Old 12-16-2012, 05:45 PM   #208
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Jeebus. This thread makes my taint hurt.

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Old 12-19-2012, 07:14 AM   #209
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Riders bragging about not using the rear brake are like 1st year rock climbers throwing the word "Trad" around without knowing what it means. It's a sure sign of insecurity.
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:08 AM   #210
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I just finished reading Andy Ibbot's book. The MotoGP paddock seems to be about split on the use of rear brakes. The ones who do talk mainly about stabilizing the bike and reducing hop than shortening braking distances. The author mildly advises against it. His argument is that there is so much else going on at that time that it is difficult to get the rear brake right. I'm with him.

For all the "it just takes practice" guys, none other than John Hopkins says "the rear brake ought to be painted red and have EMERGENCY USE ONLY written on it." Suffice it to say that if he can't get it right neither can you.
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