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Old 12-13-2012, 08:14 AM   #121
crofrog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripped1 View Post
...and how long it takes before your face is in the pavement.

There is a BIG difference in a front end lock from 100mph and 10mph. I've done both on more then one occasion.
Really you've had a bunch of 100mph lock ups?

What and where?
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:15 AM   #122
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You will stop faster using both brakes properly than you can doing a stoppie.
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:20 AM   #123
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Rear, front, both, neither there is a right and wrong way. Darwins theory will weed out the wrong.

on the interstate the other day in the fast lane passing a semi. Another truck was merging from an on ramp and the semi started changing lanes into me to let him in. With the tractor trailer now about 6" from my throttle hand I applied front brake and locked up the rear brake (oops) to try and get some room, immediately abandoned that idea and went onto the paved left shoulder, gassed it and passed. It was all automatic and took about 2-3 seconds.

Practice rear and front braking everytime you stop, it may save your life. Or don't. Whatever.
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:55 AM   #124
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a perfect example of ignorance...you don't know how to use the front brake and you've never braked hard for a turn from 140mph.
Yes I do and yes I have.
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:00 AM   #125
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Ok, Yes we have all seen the tests that both brakes slow down faster..... These are all done under controlled environments and the rider is very experienced. (and usually on a more non sport bike based bike)

In an emergency stop, I still don't think it is possible to use your foot, while being pushed into the gas tank by the front brake, to correctly modulate the rear brake. Your foot doesn't have as much fine control as a hand.


And doing a stoppie, the "stunters" do stoppies by jabbing on the front brake to fast.
When braking smoothly and as hard as possible it is very easy to control the back tire if it comes up. I would consider that 100% braking and not a stoppie.
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:02 AM   #126
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Yes I do and yes I have.
Cool who did you race with?
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:33 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crofrog View Post
Really you've had a bunch of 100mph lock ups?

What and where?

A few times yes, all at the track. I've had the front tire locked in turn one at NJMP at least 5 times, that is easily 150mph at the brake markers on a 600, in fact if I checked my 675s speedo right now the highest saved speed is likely 163 or so, and the last time I rode it was at that track.

I fear locking it at 10mph on the street much worse, its a LOT harder to recover.

At high speed you have time to feel it lock and think about how to recover, at low speed you are halfway gone before you know what is happening.

On the Speedy its actually worse, the axial brakes are easily as powerful as the radials on the 675, but they have a fraction of the feel. On that one the weight balance gets you more, the front end gets SERIOUSLY nervous when you really get aggressive with the the throttle and chassis and swing arm stability aren't its strong suite.
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:43 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripped1 View Post

I fear locking it at 10mph on the street much worse, its a LOT harder to recover.

At high speed you have time to feel it lock and think about how to recover, at low speed you are halfway gone before you know what is happening.
The time is the same, the distance you travel is very different that little line was a quote from Kieth Code.

"In straight line braking, a locked-up front wheel feels the same at 100 mph as it does going 10 mph, but the skid mark is
longer."

-TWOW1, pg67

I do agree there is more gyro in the bike so the stability is higher but its not any more difficult to recover from otherwise i'd wreck my 200 in the woods all the fucking time.
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:02 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaMud View Post
Ok, Yes we have all seen the tests that both brakes slow down faster..... These are all done under controlled environments and the rider is very experienced. (and usually on a more non sport bike based bike)

In an emergency stop, I still don't think it is possible to use your foot, while being pushed into the gas tank by the front brake, to correctly modulate the rear brake. Your foot doesn't have as much fine control as a hand.


And doing a stoppie, the "stunters" do stoppies by jabbing on the front brake to fast.
When braking smoothly and as hard as possible it is very easy to control the back tire if it comes up. I would consider that 100% braking and not a stoppie.
FYI - just about every UK bike instructor, and certainly everyone I've ever spoken to, in the UK and here (Austria) teaches pupils to use both.

As for the foot not having fine control...well, I'd hate to see you drive a car. But maybe your reply, and others, go a long way towards explaining why most American cars have automatic gearboxes and why most American race tracks are one big left hand turn.....

Personally I think that people, even you colonials, given an opportunity, are capable of learning to use the rear brake at the same time as they're doing other things...it's called training and practice.

All that said, I do get the impression that Yanks seem to think that sports bikes only have a front brake andthat cruisers only have a rear brake,
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:18 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
FYI - just about every UK bike instructor, and certainly everyone I've ever spoken to, in the UK and here (Austria) teaches pupils to use both.

As for the foot not having fine control...well, I'd hate to see you drive a car. But maybe your reply, and others, go a long way towards explaining why most American cars have automatic gearboxes and why most American race tracks are one big left hand turn.....

Personally I think that people, even you colonials, given an opportunity, are capable of learning to use the rear brake at the same time as they're doing other things...it's called training and practice.

All that said, I do get the impression that Yanks seem to think that sports bikes only have a front brake andthat cruisers only have a rear brake,
Well so a car, you have the steering wheel and the brake, your in a closed environment.

On a bike, you have your body postition, the front brake, the throttle, the clutch, the wind, you are being forced onto the handlebars, so you are trying to grip more with your legs. AND you want them to modulate a little lever on the tip of their foot?

A car, let off the throttle, press the brake.
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:19 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
As for the foot not having fine control...well, I'd hate to see you drive a car. But maybe your reply, and others, go a long way towards explaining why most American cars have automatic gearboxes and why most American race tracks are one big left hand turn.....
You ever driven a race car with out harnesses? Pretty hard to accurately modulate the brakes.
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:24 AM   #132
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Cool who did you race with?
Carter Alsop a few times,Greg Boutwell,Rodney Farris a couple times and a whole bunch of guys who's names I'll never know. In fact my RZ350 belonged to Rodney at one time. Hell I may run into Greg Saturday night at the indoors. Shit since we're dropping names I rode with Nixon a couple times.

Why? What's that prove to anyone? I could really be a 14 year old in the basement of Mom's house.
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:33 AM   #133
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There really is no set answer because it depends a lot on the bike involved. The rear brake on long wheel based bikes will be more effective than on a short wheelbased bike simply because the front to rear weight bias changes more dramatically on short wheelbased bikes under heavy braking. Having said that, even short wheel based bikes will benefit from proper use of the rear brake. I race and use the rear brake though it's modified a bit and I use very hard pads on the rear brake to help make it more difficult to lock up. Most successful roadracers also use the rear brake to one extent or another.

Just like most issues this isn't black and white. There are shades of grey and different circumstances in different situations with different bikes require different techniques. Adapt or die. ;)
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:57 AM   #134
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Carter Alsop a few times,Greg Boutwell,Rodney Farris a couple times and a whole bunch of guys who's names I'll never know. In fact my RZ350 belonged to Rodney at one time. Hell I may run into Greg Saturday night at the indoors. Shit since we're dropping names I rode with Nixon a couple times.

Why? What's that prove to anyone? I could really be a 14 year old in the basement of Mom's house.
lol, not looking for name dropping. just the organization.


As for flat tracking and front and rear brake discussion...... lol I love seeing them slam on the front brake right before the turn. Right?
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:11 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by crofrog View Post
My thoughts on why rear brake usage during panic stops is bad.

1. You're added _twice_ the amount of task for stopping you now need to manage 2 separate brakes systems and tire level tractions.
2. The majority of the bike's stability is coming from the gyro of the running engine and the spinning wheels. If you lock the front and the engine is still spinning and the rear tire is still turning you have a very good chance of reducing pressure and riding out of it because the bike is still stable and tracking straight.

You lock the rear which is very easy to do while hard on the front and kill the engine you've lost much of your stability and your ability to re-accelerate and if you then lock the front on top of that the bike is completely unstable. To avoid killing the engine you now need to manage a 3rd control.

The nature of an emergency is that you aren't planning for it. It's hard to properly modulate 7 controls (front brake, rear brake, clutch, steering, body position, throttle) during a full on stop when doing planned full on stop, like on a race track.

It's going to be damn near impossible to pull it off when you didn't except it, because face it. If you where in a position to do it all right you'd not be in an emergency stop because you'd have seen it coming and already taken action to avoid the situation.
Are you kidding me? Forward momentum is what keeps bikes upright. If a "spinning engine" (what's spinning anyway? It's not a steam engine with a 3 ton flywheel) helps then I wouldn't fall over in parking lots.

Also we need to stop talking about stoppies. They only occur at the very end of the braking process. Up until then the rear brake is definitely contributing.

I no longer consciously think about how much force to apply to each brake, but I absolutely use both most of the time. I'll use either of them for minor speed adjustments. For what it's worth I was taught to use them 60/40 in the dry and 50/50 in the wet.
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