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Old 04-09-2013, 10:47 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Stromin'Nroman View Post
In the Thunderstroke Elevety-One video, they mentioned Multi-Directional Fins.

This technological advancement is absolutely the most compellingly innovative feature of Thunderstroke Eleventy-One.

Wow!

These are truly exciting we are living in.

I wonder if Multi-Directional Fin technology was borrowed from the Polaris Personal Watercraft product line?

Watch your back Briggs and Stratton, Indian is back in the game!
Uh, the multidirectional head fins from the last Springfield Chiefs are mirrored in the valve covers of the new motor.

They are attempting to give the new motor a similiar appearance of the old motor. The heavy cruiser/touring market demands specific aesthetic standards to attract customers, and perhaps, if the new motor raises the bar in performance and durability, the new Indian will be successful.

As far a the technical aspects of this motor, it seems they have a motor that fits the mission, and maybe is significantly more durable than what the engine architecture of a Harley allows.

As a fan of the Springfield bikes, I think this is a worthwhile attempt to breathe life into the old name. I am also hopeful they have a Scout and a Four in development, as well.

What do you have against Briggs & Stratton anyway?

Tom in Salem
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Old 04-09-2013, 12:01 PM   #152
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:48 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefrider View Post
Uh, the multidirectional head fins from the last Springfield Chiefs are mirrored in the valve covers of the new motor.
So it is a heretofore underutilized technical advancemancement?
Polaris would have you believe it's an engineering breakthrough.

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Originally Posted by chiefrider View Post
What do you have against Briggs & Stratton anyway?
Look at that:



They have the soon-to-be-obsolete mono-directional fins.

I can't have a mower looking like that, it doesn't look enough like a mower that might have existed in a vague time for which my forbears may have become nostalgic.
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Old 04-09-2013, 03:40 PM   #154
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Hey, I think I'm pretty fuckin' clever
Well, you're not.
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:42 PM   #155
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What can I say...I love flatheads.





Me & my 1953 Roadmaster 80.




But I'm a 6v fellow in a 12v world.

Tom in Salem
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:04 PM   #156
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That's a cool pic, Tom. I love your bike.

I used to drive a 54' Ford that was 6v. It's not for everybody, is it?
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Old 04-10-2013, 08:46 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefrider View Post
It's been 45 years since anyone tied to revitalize Indian with a proper looking motor. This flathead 45" prototype factory cafe racer emerged at the same time the Honda 750 four was introduced. It may look speedy, but unlikely made much more than 25-30 horsepower.





Tom in Salem

Who built that? Indian kicked the bucket in 1953. They did not exist when the Honda CB750 came out. Is it a real Indian engine?


Just what is (I mean was) wrong with Briggs&Stratton? Their side valve motors were completely bulletproof. And they didn't even have a real oiling system. I took them apart and put them back together when I was 5 years old, and they still ran.

6V is not so bad. I had a 6V VW bug. Headlights were a little dim, everything else worked. Except the heater. No heater ever worked in any air cooled VW
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Old 04-10-2013, 08:52 AM   #158
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Who built that? Indian kicked the bucket in 1953. They did not exist when the Honda CB750 came out. Is it a real Indian engine?
Floyd Clymer and Friedel Münch.
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:08 AM   #159
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Floyd Clymer and Friedel Münch.

Oh yes, Floyd Clymer. He put the Indian name on anything and everything. I remember Friedel Munch now, from the Munch Mammut. It had an NSU car engine in it. Jay Leno has one.
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Old 04-10-2013, 01:00 PM   #160
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Floyd Clymer's 1968 SCOUT prototype


In collaboration with Friedel Munch, Clymer hoped this German made combination of state of the art chassis and 1940's Scout engine would be a sales success.

This was never to come to fruition.


Rumour has it that some of the "magnesium castings" were actually wooden mock-ups so it is unlikely that this machine actually ran.

Only one prototype was made and it still exists and was recently (late 2009) sold.

http://indianmcc.com/scout.html

Tom in Salem
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Old 04-11-2013, 12:17 PM   #161
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Chiefrider,

I appreciate the work you put into keeping a 60-year-old bike on the road.
I understand that.

I don't understand the logic of continuing a design well past it's technological relevance and then trying to sell it like its something new. That said there's not much about motocyling that can be supported by logic anyways.

I guess the market for nostalgiacycles is created by the the demand for bikes like yours in the face of a very limited supply and the general cycling public's aversion to the kind of effort you must have put into restoring and maintaining such a cool old ride.

I thought that video of the Thunderstroke Eleventy-one was hilarious in it's attempt to use a retro aesthetic touch like Multi-Directional-Fins as a integral functional element of it's excitingly innovative new idea for a motorcycle engine: a 45 deg. single pin crank air-cooled v-twin. Wow, nobody ever thought of that before!

I think it would have made more sense to do an inline four, it would automatically be 33% cooler than the Triumph Rocket III.

But instead they opted for the Fishead.

Cheers,

Norm
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:54 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Stromin'Nroman View Post
Chiefrider,

I appreciate the work you put into keeping a 60-year-old bike on the road.
I understand that.

I don't understand the logic of continuing a design well past it's technological relevance and then trying to sell it like its something new. That said there's not much about motocyling that can be supported by logic anyways.

I guess the market for nostalgiacycles is created by the the demand for bikes like yours in the face of a very limited supply and the general cycling public's aversion to the kind of effort you must have put into restoring and maintaining such a cool old ride.

I thought that video of the Thunderstroke Eleventy-one was hilarious in it's attempt to use a retro aesthetic touch like Multi-Directional-Fins as a integral functional element of it's excitingly innovative new idea for a motorcycle engine: a 45 deg. single pin crank air-cooled v-twin. Wow, nobody ever thought of that before!

I think it would have made more sense to do an inline four, it would automatically be 33% cooler than the Triumph Rocket III.

But instead they opted for the Fishead.

Cheers,

Norm
My guess is that somebody at Polaris looked at what sells for Harley, and figured they could do it better. Time will tell.

If their intent was to come out and compete with BMW, Ducati, Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, or Kawasaki, Polaris could and would do so. But it wouldn't make sense to have the Indian brand on it.

Yes, the multidirectional fins on the TS111 are merely styling cues that make it reminiscent to the old Chiefs, nothing more. While you may find it hilarious, apparently you are not the intended customer. But by this omission, I guess feeling amused is better than feeling pissed off or slighted.

Harley's Softail mimics the old DuoGlide hardtails. Combined with the neospringer, it mimics the Knucklehead or 1st year Panhead. Each of these "innovations" are a step backwards in handling and ride, but, by golly, the MoCo sells a shitload of them, just like Ford does with their retro-styled Mustangs, or Dodge with their PT Cruisers.

The 111 motor's valve train and cylinder head architecture is about as technically advanced as the possibly-forthcoming Motus, the S&S X-Wedge, or most American V8s. With 1.8 liters spread between two undersquare cylinders this thing won't rev much more than 5000rpm, but the target customers want that. With that built-in rev limitation, why bother with a high performance valve train or valve layout? For this motor, the valves will more than adequately fill and vacate the cylinders. Your WeeStrom may match it in the quarter mile with 40% of the displacement, but I wouldn't put pink slips down, if I were you, on a top gear roll on.

Sometime, Norm, you should rent a Harley bagger for a few days and take it out on the road. There are cheaper, faster, smoother, and better handling bikes out there, but the syncopated low-rpm bassoprofundo beat of such a motor at highway speeds is intoxicating. This may help you understand the "technological relevance" of such a design.

And, for christsakes, this is only the first salvo in what is expected to be a product line broad enough to justify freestanding dealerships. They've had the go-ahead with Indian for what, 13 months? Let's let this new effort get out of the gate and around the first turn before we judge this race is over.

But I, myself, am not really interested owning one of these new 111s. And I agree that an inline four could be interesting. But they'll have my full attention if they come out with a modern Scout that's lighter and more powerful than the Sportster.

With or without multidirectional fins.

Best, Tom in Salem

PS--totally dig the Zappa quote in the sig line!
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chiefrider screwed with this post 04-11-2013 at 02:24 PM
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:26 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefrider View Post
Yes, the multidirectional fins on the TS111 are merely styling cues that make it reminiscent to the old Chiefs, nothing more. While you may find it hilarious, apparently you are not the intended customer.
I feel slighted that I'm not the intended customer.
I'd subscibe to their U-Tube comedy channel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefrider View Post

Harley's Softail mimics the old DuoGlide hardtails. Combined with the neospringer, it mimics the Knucklehead or 1st year Panhead. Each of these "innovations" are a step backwards in handling and ride, but, by golly, the MoCo sells a shitload of them, just like Ford does with their retro-styled Mustangs, or Dodge with their PT Cruisers.
By force of peer pressure and patriotism I have ridden at least one of each of the Harley lines. They failed to meet my motorcyling use objectives at a huge premium, no less. I wish more of the orange and black faithful were as open-minded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefrider View Post
Your WeeStrom may match it in the quarter mile with 40% of the displacement, but I wouldn't put pink slips down, if I were you, on a top gear roll on.
I have done this and will only race a Harley from a dead stop. I have left my brother and his Softail in a shower of sparks on a local backroad. Then when the pavement gave out, he got to practice his emergency braking technique. I am not a good enough rider to ride like I want on a cruiser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefrider View Post

Sometime, Norm, you should rent a Harley bagger for a few days and take it out on the road. There are cheaper, faster, smoother, and better handling bikes out there, but the syncopated low-rpm bassoprofundo beat of such a motor at highway speeds is intoxicating.
"Sometime" was in November of 2007 in Phoenix on a 2006 Road King Classic. It was 1000 times better for toting my wife around the Grand Canyon than by bike would have been. I had no problem doing tight u-turns and stopping on that bike, much better than the Softails. However, the Screaming Eagle Pipes are probably still reverberating off the North rim.

My wife rented a Dyna Street Bob then and traded her Sporty for one after that trip. I get the appeal of the Twin Thump but it's not a priority right now and right now I can only afford priorities. Besides, whenever I want that experience I just hop on the wife's bike. Unfortunately, the rear suspension bottoms out on road striping, that usually keeps my rides short.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefrider View Post
PS--totally dig the Zappa quote in the sig line!
Here's another:

It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice. There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork and the other is nostalgia.

Cheers,

Norm

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Old 04-11-2013, 04:55 PM   #164
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Design technology has very little to do with the reliability and longevity of an engine, though it may have an effect on performance. The new Indian engine is not 60 years old, it is a thoroughly modern clean sheet design, and should prove just as reliable, if not more so, than many of the new "high tech" engines out there. The original Indian, Harley, and pretty much any vintage engine did not last very long, but not because of it's basic design. That was a long time ago, and there were issues with metallurgy, manufacturing techniques, plus a few minor design problems, such as the oiling systems, hand controlled spark advance, etc. With todays abilities, it is possible to make a very close replica of an old design, with modern materials and manufacturing techniques, and a few mostly unnoticeable design changes, and have it be totally reliable.

Harley does it this way, their engines use ancient technology. Even the Japanese have done it that way. Look at the Yamaha Road Star engine. Air cooled, pushrods, it had a carb when it came out in the late '90s. It was a brand new design, just like the new Indian engine (with the exception of CDI ignition to eliminate some maintenance and generate a hotter spark) uses decades old technology, and works just fine. It has been proven near bulletproof.

I love old technology, for me the simpler the better. I do have an issue with the Indian engine using an internal chain, which I believe will be it's weak point, which has proven to be the case with the Harley Twin Cam engine. The Harley engine did not need 2 cams, had they done all the updates to the EVO engine except for the twin cams, it would have worked fine for a cruiser engine.

Anyway I love the fact that old designs can now be duplicated almost completely with only minor changes, and be as good as any modern engine (I no longer care much about the performance of a motorcycle engine, my boy racer days are long gone)

While I don't own any vintage motorcycles (unfortunately) I do own two 50 year old cars, and absolutely love them. They are simple, easy to work on, and dead reliable. To bad they don't have A/C, or I would drive them year around, but here in Phoenix, A/C is pretty much required in the summer. I have driven one of them from Phoenix to Portland,OR and back twice with no problems at all.

Technology is fine (other than digital electronics, which I hate with a passion) when there is an actual need for it. But it serves no purpose on a cruiser motorcycle. Using technology just because it exists is just plain wrong.
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