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Old 05-17-2013, 11:13 PM   #481
IrishJohn OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyvh1959 View Post
Shaddix, to your question: "If I recall, the reason I initially asked the question was because nothing about pressing was mentioned in the demo portion prior to executing the exercise. Is that correct or are they supposed to tell you to press on the left grip to turn during the explanation of the exercise?"

IF the RC had not described the action of "pressing to initiate lean" then that was his/her mistake. In this exercise (small oval) it is key that riders understand and use the "slow-look-lean-roll" sequence because it is the first time we really use it. It is key to at least make the students aware of it. If not, students WILL wander wide as they apply throttle through the turn. That exercise also includes a reversal of direction so the students ride the oval to the right, which again reinforces the action of now pressing to the right to initiate/control lean and path of travel.




With the greatest of genuine respect - I am a very novice rider after all - this reminded me of where my confusion started. Our Instructor also was saying about 'pressing' and me being maybe a bit too literal-minded could not, and honestly still can't, 'get it'. To me pressing the bars does nothing (I know it must - its just the words used that trip me up) because in my mind it means literally that, that I am trying to push the bike into the ground. After reading all the posts here (and I still kinda wish I had never started what has at ties become a rather confrontational topic) I think I would have been better off if I had been told that you 'swerve' the bike ever so slightly in the opposite direction of where you wish to turn. A bit back I have written about my near miss and how I honestly did not think of what I was doing but somehow just did it. Maybe I got really lucky - thats what worries me now.I've been practicing turning since on our church parking lot and at low speeds can definitely 'think it through' and follow the process, but at higher speeds it still does not 'feel' like I am turning the handlebars the other way to begin the turn. The terms 'push' and 'press' just don't translate in my mind so there is a cognitive gap that I just can't seem to be able to fill in that little space of time to where I feel I am 'consciously aware' of starting the turn. It still feels - and I know now it is absolutely not the case thanks to all the explanations - that I am using bodywieight 'lean' to 'throw' the bike 'into' a turn at any rate of speed above about 15-20mph. Is it something I should be concerned about or should I be OK just relying on a kind of 'I don't really know how it works but apparently I'm working it' ? (or maybe I just don't have the right kind of mental process to ever 'get it'?) In all honesty its becoming a bit of an obsession and making me a bit more nervous when I'm riding not being able to figure out exactly what I should be understanding at this point...
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:14 PM   #482
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Well, it finally happened to me. I'm riding along on my merry way when an anus-head in a pick up pulls out of a driveway right in front of me. The umitigated SOB wasn't creeping carefully out - he was accelerating fast. I don't know how I saw him in time, went back today as part of the 'get back on the horse' thing and he literally had to have been driving with zero conception that anybody could have been approaching that driveway. There was a small gap in his tall hedge and by some miracle I saw the moving flash of color and must have instinctively realised something wicked that way was coming. ANYWAY - I am sorry to report that I did not 'consciously think' about countersteering or leans or anything you have all been good enough to explain. It was sheer luck or reaction or something but all I really remember is swerving around the hua's truck front. I stopped down the road having heard a crashing noise and for a microsecond thought he had actually clipped my bike and that I must be in some kind of shock - am happy to report the Dipstick must have had a bigger fright than me becuase it was the noise of his truck impacting in the wall opposite his driveway. Cops came, he was not DUI, did not appear to be an escapee from the School for the Blind, mumbled something about 'The guy on the motorbike was all over the road and I did not know what to do and I panicked' - which the Cops did not buy for a second and he got a ticket but I did not. I was shaking like a leaf, did not want to try and ride home right away so sat down (before I fell down -knees felt wobbly as hell) for about an hour until I was sure I was OK to ride (very slowly and carefully : ) back to my house. I think, when these things happen, you really don't have time to think about anything including - and no disrespect intended - 'countersteering'. I feel very lucky to not have been in a nasty crash and I think that the main value of teaching things like the 'emergency swerve' is that it reinforces a vital point 9imho) that EXCRETA DOES HAPPEN WHEN YOU ARE ON A MOTORBIKE. I ride a hell of a lot more carefully than I drive - and that is because of all the 'horror stories' balanced with the emphasis on the stupidity of thinking 'right of way equals invulnerability' and such like. To me its like swimming - we have a saying back home 'Only the Good Swimmers Drown' - in other words, enjoy the water without being stupid, and for me its always been a case of 'Better to arrive five minutes late that to be dead on time' : ) Sure paid off in this case just ambling along : )
(reposted this so you would not have to hunt for it)
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:15 PM   #483
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I think that's the point of all this, you did it without thinking. By learning and thinking about it you were mentally prepared and it saved you.

Glad you're ok.
Thank you KX50002 : )
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Old 05-18-2013, 07:57 AM   #484
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Dood. Just take your thumb and push one bar forward and note the wheel turns one way and the bike leans the other. End of discussion
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:45 AM   #485
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Now, after you have finished leaned-turning and you need to roll the bike back up to a vertical position...........would you call that control input counter-steering or over-steering?
http://www.promocycle.com/Tableau2-c...quage-eng.html
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Old 05-19-2013, 06:44 AM   #486
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I firmly agree with countersteering, and if you are riding you are doing it. But I found my recent video surprising, this is a very twisty road, tighter than deals gap, and if you watch the front tire, you will see I am turning into the corner at speeds much above 15 mph.

Just food for thought. BTW, DO NOT over analyze, just go ride!

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Old 05-19-2013, 11:48 AM   #487
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Originally Posted by PFFOG View Post
I firmly agree with countersteering, and if you are riding you are doing it. But I found my recent video surprising, this is a very twisty road, tighter than deals gap, and if you watch the front tire, you will see I am turning into the corner at speeds much above 15 mph.

Just food for thought. BTW, DO NOT over analyze, just go ride!
I'll over analyze because I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. Once the bike starts leaning the wheel turns in to stop falling in and stabilize the bike--or that's the best way I can express what's been taught to me.

Are you saying there's no countersteer because the wheel turns in?

If you watch where the wheel is turning in...it's after the initiation of the turn...
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Old 05-19-2013, 01:03 PM   #488
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PFFOG, once you are in a turn, how do you tighten the turn radius (turn sharper)? Simple, countersteer harder. For a constant radius turn whether one holds countersteer pressure through the turn, or has no pressure, or pressures the bars into the turn depends on the geometry of the bike.

John, try this. At street speed, in a safe spot for a right turn, put your left hand into your lap. Open your right hand so your palm is holding the throttle steady. At the turn point, gently push the handlebar with your right hand and don't move any other muscle. To straighten after the turn, wrap your fingers around the right grip and gently pull back. (And, depending on the bike's geometry, you might not have to pull back much if at all.)

Try this also...riding down a safe street at street speed look for every spot on the pavement. Manhole covers. Tar spots. Paint spots. Leaves. Safely swerve around each one using only a forward push on the bar. Push right to swerve right. Pull back on the right to straighten. Push left to swerve left, etc. I, also, don't know why the MSF uses "press" when they mean "push." Repeat this drill safely a couple of thousand times to create the new neural connections in your brain to make it automatic.
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Old 05-20-2013, 04:15 AM   #489
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Originally Posted by PT Rider View Post
PFFOG, once you are in a turn, how do you tighten the turn radius (turn sharper)? Simple, countersteer harder. For a constant radius turn whether one holds countersteer pressure through the turn, or has no pressure, or pressures the bars into the turn depends on the geometry of the bike.

John, try this. At street speed, in a safe spot for a right turn, put your left hand into your lap. Open your right hand so your palm is holding the throttle steady. At the turn point, gently push the handlebar with your right hand and don't move any other muscle. To straighten after the turn, wrap your fingers around the right grip and gently pull back. (And, depending on the bike's geometry, you might not have to pull back much if at all.)

Try this also...riding down a safe street at street speed look for every spot on the pavement. Manhole covers. Tar spots. Paint spots. Leaves. Safely swerve around each one using only a forward push on the bar. Push right to swerve right. Pull back on the right to straighten. Push left to swerve left, etc. I, also, don't know why the MSF uses "press" when they mean "push." Repeat this drill safely a couple of thousand times to create the new neural connections in your brain to make it automatic.
THIS I can understand and do Thank you - will be trying this : )
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Old 05-20-2013, 07:06 AM   #490
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I know all the reasons and physics behind it, and am aware enough of my inputs to know what inputs I am giving the bars, But I was a little surprised at the amount of turn in at those speeds, I know on 1st/2nd gear hairpins I steer in a lot, but speeds are 10-20 mph ish.

As I said, I don't analyze it to learn, I know that like walking, if you are riding you are counter steering and your brain will make adjustments as necessary. The problem is when we override our brain and try to think it out.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:31 PM   #491
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Too many people describe the action of countersteering incorrectly, including some MSF instructors. And, as evidenced by descriptions above, it is a very simple process. I tell my students, all countersteering has to be for you to begin using it, is slightly more palm pressure applied on one handlebar grip than the other.

Following that, a left turn means more left palm pressure againt the grip than the right grip.

A right turn means more right palm pressure against the grip than the left grip.

It is not "pushing", certainly NOT pushing "down" as some define it. Because if you ride a sportbike versus a cruiser with ape-hangers, the sportbike rider does push "down" in a way because of the riding position on the street (but not on the track in tuck position), the ape-hanger rider pushes "up". But the action is SIMPLY more palm pressure against one grip versus the other in the direction the bike is intended to go. That's all, to initiate a lean.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:56 PM   #492
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Press left, go left. Press right, go right.
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Old 05-20-2013, 08:07 PM   #493
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Originally Posted by Capt Crash View Post
Press left, go left. Press right, go right.
Yes, but press what? And which left is that? Gosh, it gets so confusing.

Only in a country where there is virtually no rider training before you get your license can this ever be such a lengthy discussion.
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:46 PM   #494
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Yes, but press what? And which left is that? Gosh, it gets so confusing...
Silly goose, it's press the left side of the tank with your right hand...sorta twister on wheels...
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:28 PM   #495
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I'm sure it has been posted on here somewhere in the thread, but I'm too lazy to go through 11 pages to check....

I fly helicopters. A helicopter blade disc is exposed to the same forces as a wheel. When my instructor (many years ago) explained how the magic all worked he said 'remember batting a hoop down the road with a stick? Remember how it turned when you hit it at the top?'

I of course returned to the xbox, where the laws of physics don't apply and scoffed at his genius. However (many years later) I acknowledge that he was right and that it has a daily application for all bikers.

You do not steer a bike once the wheels are gyroscopically stable which is a function of mass and rate of rotation of the wheel. The speed depends on the combination of both, so is difficult to define, but in my experience, anything less than 20 MPH needs a different technique.

All of the initiation of steering a bike is done intuitively with body weight. You may have heard the phrase 'You don't steer with your hands, you steer with your ass'. Not quite true. Everything above your ass makes the difference. That movement of your body translates into a moment arm that changes the relationship of your body's center of gravity (CoG) to the GoG of the bike. In simple terms, take a ruler in your left hand and hold it at the eight inch point losely between finger and thumb. Imagine this is where your ass is in relation to the bikes CoG. If you push the top of the ruler left or right, you cause the ruler to tip off center. Now instead of pushing, while the ruler is tilted, pull down at any point above your finger grip and the ruler will still tilt.

What you are doing by moving your body is inducing a vertical force between the vertical angle of the bike CoG and your body CoG and the force of gravity. This means that you also have a lateral difference between these angles, resolved as a lateral force.

THis lateral force acts as a pushing force on the top of the tyres and wheels, which are spinning fast enough to have gyroscopic properties. If you lean right, the force acts from the top of the tyre, pushing the top to the right. Because of the physics of gyroscopes, the force acts 90 degrees in the direction of rotation (forwards, unless you are doing something very wrong!), causing the front of the tyre to try to turn to the right.

As a result the twisting motion transmitted through the forks to the handlebars results in a force felt in the right grip pushing back. In an ideal situation you can do nothing and the turn continues, because the forces resolve themselves. (Ever ridden a pushbike with no hands?) but with changes in speed and small changes in body position or the radius of the turn, you have to 'counter' this force to allow for these changes by pushing back against the right bar.

Different bikes with different geometries have a greater or lesser force depending on multiple factors, but in general in a turn, you will feel some force trying to turn the bike into the turn that you will have to 'counter' to maintain a constant radius of turn.

Normal (non chopped bikes with ridiculous rake angles) will be pretty neutral at road speeds. Some really extreme sports bikes will be massively sensitive to these changes and will feel like pigs at slow speeds because the forces to 'counter' the turn are excessive or sudden, but at higher speeds, they become more neutral.

One of the most important things to remember about all of this is *relax!
The designers have done all the hard work. Let the bike do the tuff stuff, just move your body to help it and don't worry about the bars!
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