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Old 05-26-2013, 07:57 PM   #526
lnewqban
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joexr View Post
............Like I said earlier , there's only one way to turn a bike...........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8kHI...layer_embedded

I have found this interesting table about the three methods of steering:

http://www.promocycle.com/Tableau3-contrebraquage.html
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Old 05-26-2013, 08:00 PM   #527
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Originally Posted by lnewqban View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8kHI...layer_embedded

I have found this interesting table about the three methods of steering:

http://www.promocycle.com/Tableau3-contrebraquage.html
It's three parts , not three methods , but the terminology is irrelevent.
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Old 05-26-2013, 10:14 PM   #528
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
I'm not argueing against countersteering , professer. I'm saying you keyboard experts are confusing to the Newbs out there.They need practice and seat time , not a name to remember for a movement. Like I said earlier , there's only one way to turn a bike. They're already countersteering unless they fall down every ten feet.
I'm not arguing for countersteering; physics enforces that on its own. I'm saying that the "Newbs out there" (and the experienced riders as well, for that matter) need to know this shit. They need practice and seat time doing the right things, NOT misinformation and bullshit.

And the amount of confusion and ignorance that has been put forth in this thread (and every other thread on the subject, ever) is a very clear argument as to WHY. It is clearly apparent that a great many riders who have been riding for years still have no idea what they are actually doing or why, or how riding a motorcycle actually works. If you do not consciously know what you are doing, then any time you must make a conscious decision, you are operating from inadequate information, and that increases the chances that your decision will be wrong.

NO ONE is arguing here against practice and seat time. We're arguing for informed practice and seat time.

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Old 05-26-2013, 10:26 PM   #529
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Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
I'm not arguing for countersteering; physics enforces that on its own. I'm saying that the "Newbs out there" (and the experienced riders as well, for that matter) need to know this shit. They need practice and seat time doing the right things, NOT misinformation and bullshit.

And the amount of confusion and ignorance that has been put forth in this thread (and every other thread on the subject, ever) is a very clear argument as to WHY. It is clearly apparent that a great many riders who have been riding for years still have no idea what they are actually doing or why, or how riding a motorcycle actually works. If you do not consciously know what you are doing, then any time you must make a conscious decision, you are operating from inadequate information, and that increases the chances that your decision will be wrong.

NO ONE is arguing here against practice and seat time. We're arguing for informed practice and seat time.

PhilB
It shouln't be a decision , it should be an unconcious reaction. Practice and repetition are the ONLY way. Many , many , many miles and repetition.
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Old 05-27-2013, 03:55 AM   #530
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
The weave isn't noticeable. If you locked your front wheel dead center while traveling at speed, the bike would fall over instead of continuing in a straight line
ALL: Again, not my experience. An old Triumph that I owned and rode hands-free a lot back in the day (throttle locked, of course) had a factory friction disc streering dampener fitted to it. Tightening down on that dampener effectively took all free motion out of the steering including anything that the bike might normally do on its own. Only arm pressure would overcome the dampener and allow the forks to turn and make rider steering&balance possible. The bike would run a very long way while hands-free and absolutely zero steering. Speeds at which I did this varied between 30-70mph. (Imagine: Steering with 'stiction'. Sticky steering. Like gravel in the head bearings locking up the forks for a moment. Or enough stiction that the forks would not flop to the side no matter how far or which way the bike was leaned.)

For a really funny episode of that friction dampener read, "Dirt Bike" by Rick Seimans. He tightened the thing down so hard that the bike wouldn't steer at all, even with arm strength, and he rode/crashed into a phone booth. Having had some similar fun of my own. bitd, that story nearly killed me with laughter when I read it.

Edit: Tony Foal constructed his experimental forks for testing. And he rode the configurations hands-free to see what would happen. Damn brave guy by my way of thinking. Damn smart too.
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ibafran screwed with this post 05-27-2013 at 04:22 AM
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Old 05-27-2013, 04:31 AM   #531
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counter steering

I thought I was just playing when I'm on an empty road and see how fast I can go while weaving in and out of the white line now endless arguments showed me I am using COUNTER STEERING . I discovered it when I was a kid and of course it works why so much time argueing if you ride you counter steer
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Old 05-27-2013, 04:50 AM   #532
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Originally Posted by westerlywinds View Post
I thought I was just playing when I'm on an empty road and see how fast I can go while weaving in and out of the white line now endless arguments showed me I am using COUNTER STEERING . I discovered it when I was a kid and of course it works why so much time argueing if you ride you counter steer
Ever do that hard and fast enough to make the front wheel come off the pavement mid-swerves and repeatably pogo on the forks from side to side? That's just one example of CS up near its limits. Great fun as long as one doesn't catch a slick spot.
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Old 05-27-2013, 04:51 AM   #533
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I learned a lot from reading
too long, didn't read
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Old 05-27-2013, 06:32 AM   #534
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
it shouln't be a decision , it should be an unconcious reaction. Practice and repetition are the only way. Many , many , many miles and repetition.

+++++++++++++++++11111111111111111
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Old 05-27-2013, 06:45 AM   #535
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Originally Posted by westerlywinds View Post
I thought I was just playing when I'm on an empty road and see how fast I can go while weaving in and out of the white line now endless arguments showed me I am using COUNTER STEERING . I discovered it when I was a kid and of course it works why so much time argueing if you ride you counter steer
Exactly , but the keyboard riders here think they're novelists or documentarians or something.
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Old 05-27-2013, 08:56 AM   #536
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
It shouln't be a decision , it should be an unconcious reaction. Practice and repetition are the ONLY way. Many , many , many miles and repetition.
It SHOULD be, but it isn't always. and on those occasions where a decision needs to be made, it helps a lot if you have the ability to make the right decision. And on those occasions where it's an unconscious reaction, how do you make as sure as you can be that it will be the right one? You practice doing the right thing until it is unconscious. How do you know you're practicing the right thing if you don't know what the fuck you're doing? Awareness, instruction, coaching, directed practice. Practice and repetition of bad habits just makes you automatically do the wrong things.

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Old 05-27-2013, 09:26 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by ibafran View Post
ALL: Again, not my experience. An old
Well. I'm not going to go test it for you so feel free to think that but basically all authors that write on motorcycle mechanics will tell you that the bike will fall over without having some play in the steering
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Old 05-27-2013, 11:54 AM   #538
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
Well. I'm not going to go test it for you so feel free to think that but basically all authors that write on motorcycle mechanics will tell you that the bike will fall over without having some play in the steering
This constantly weaving thing....I've never ever heard this before. Where did you hear this?
Is it something that I should be able to notice? I've never felt it on any bike.
I'm skeptical.
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Old 05-27-2013, 12:18 PM   #539
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This constantly weaving thing....I've never ever heard this before. Where did you hear this?
Is it something that I should be able to notice? I've never felt it on any bike.
I'm skeptical.
No you won't notice it, a bike is only stable at speed due to its tendency for the front wheel to turn in to the direction it is falling. Without that it would flop over on its side.

Here's one of the many articles that notes the point, this one written by David Hough author of proficient motorcycling

http://www.soundrider.com/archive/sa..._rider-pt2.htm

Quote:
Tire drag off-center (and other forces) steers the front wheel toward the direction of lean, rebalancing the bike. Even in what you might swear is a "straight line", the front wheel makes a very slight weave from side to side as the bike balances itself.
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Old 05-27-2013, 01:15 PM   #540
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He's saying that the steering doesn't stay perfectly centered while going straight. It is actually going back and forth almost un-noticeably.
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