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Old 05-28-2013, 05:21 AM   #556
Capt Crash
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I think that we're too finely pointing this. For a rider running wide, especially a new or intermediate rider, there can be that moment of freeze where your head says, "oh shit, what now?" Rummaging through the options the answer of "press the inside grip" should come up...if you have it in your toolbox. Otherwise you just fixate on that tree and, well, go where you look.

(Oh, and writing a book doesn't automatically make you right...but can give you carpel tunnel syndrome.)
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Old 05-28-2013, 05:28 AM   #557
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Originally Posted by Capt Crash View Post
I think that we're too finely pointing this. For a rider running wide, especially a new or intermediate rider, there can be that moment of freeze where your head says, "oh shit, what now?" Rummaging through the options the answer of "press the inside grip" should come up...if you have it in your toolbox. Otherwise you just fixate on that tree and, well, go where you look.

(Oh, and writing a book doesn't automatically make you right...but can give you carpel tunnel syndrome.)
Nah. Your best plan is to keep a clear and empty head, void of any thought whatsoever. That make sit easier for your "lizard brain" to take over and magically tell your limbs to make the correct inputs. I find that a few beers with lunch helps immensely.
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Old 05-28-2013, 05:55 AM   #558
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Originally Posted by Jim Moore View Post
Nah. Your best plan is to keep a clear and empty head, void of any thought whatsoever. That make sit easier for your "lizard brain" to take over and magically tell your limbs to make the correct inputs. I find that a few beers with lunch helps immensely.


And yes, he's had a few alien brews as well.
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Old 05-28-2013, 07:11 AM   #559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Crash View Post
I think that we're too finely pointing this. For a rider running wide, especially a new or intermediate rider, there can be that moment of freeze where your head says, "oh shit, what now?" Rummaging through the options the answer of "press the inside grip" should come up...if you have it in your toolbox. Otherwise you just fixate on that tree and, well, go where you look.....
What if that rider is going straight and there is no inside grip?

Not questioning your post, with which I agree; just wondering the most effective way to teach new riders some trick that will snap into action when all conscious cerebral functions shut down due to fear.
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Old 05-28-2013, 07:18 AM   #560
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Well , when someone like yourself pulls out in front of us in their car , I'll be stopping , sliding sideways and swerving [ all while upright ] as you're laying it down and/or plowing the car , while trying to decide on your choices from page 72 of a book. I've roadraced , flat tracked , MXd , drag raced , enduro'd and hillclimbed . Maybe people with no ability like yourself DO need books to learn to ride. Take MY advice. Get yourself a little bike [ 100 to 250cc ] and learn to throw it around , sideways and out of shape , and learn to bring it back. Oh and isn't this thread about countersteering?
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I'm a little embarrassed, but this paragraph gave me a little bit of a boner. Anyone else?
Don't be embarassed, we're all a little bit gay, just ask Ron White. How could anyone help but get a little bit of a boner from such a honkin' massive internet penis?

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Old 05-28-2013, 07:38 AM   #561
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What if that rider is going straight and there is no inside grip?

Not questioning your post, with which I agree; just wondering the most effective way to teach new riders some trick that will snap into action when all conscious cerebral functions shut down due to fear.
That's called "Panic"

a sudden overwhelming fear, with or without cause, that produces hysterical or irrational behavior, and that often spreads quickly through a group of persons or animals. (emphasis added)

If you're going straight you can:

1. Brake to buy time and slow impact.
2. Swerve to the open space with a press in that direction.

I'm old and grumpy but Frank Herbert's "Fear is the Mind killer" explained it well in Dune:

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

Perhaps a tad grandiose but once you're panicking that's all you're doing. Which is why having a clear knowledge (and practice) of what to do can save yer butt.
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Old 05-28-2013, 07:55 AM   #562
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I'm the ignorant one? Yeah , I'm gonna go cry now because you think you read better than I ride.It can be a dangerous world out there. Since you're unable to apply what you read maybe you would be better off padding yourself with your books.
I'm arguing for knowing what you're doing while you're doing it. You're arguing, for some unfathomable reason, *against* knowing what you're doing while you're doing it. So yes, that's a knowledge vs. ignorance argument, and you're on the wrong side.

And your further comment about "unable to apply what (I) read" just reinforces my point, as I'm arguing FOR applying what you read, while you're arguing against reading it in the first place. Perhaps if you learned how to read ...

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Old 05-28-2013, 06:36 PM   #563
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Don't be embarassed, we're all a little bit gay, just ask Ron White. How could anyone help but get a little bit of a boner from such a honkin' massive internet penis?

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Old 05-29-2013, 06:25 AM   #564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Crash View Post
If you're going straight you can:

1. Brake to buy time and slow impact.
2. Swerve to the open space with a press in that direction.
Yes, Capt; that is better way to teach it, IMHO.

"Press (forward) on the direction you want to lean or go" may eliminate the confusion for different circumstances (turn or straight).

As the student should also look into the direction he/she wants to go next, a head movement and lateral movement could be taught together with the "press on the direction you want to lean or go", all being a harmonic movement.

Practicing that enough should give the student a chance to do the best move at a critical moment, even without thinking.

I like your instructional videos.
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Old 05-29-2013, 07:40 AM   #565
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Panic is what riders do when they have no knowledge or option to do something else. When our brain is suddenly over-loaded with split-second critical choices, if the knowledge and practice isn't in the memory to do a specific action, most often the brain "freezes" and gross muscle functions override. If all the rider knows is BRAKES, that is what the rider does. But knowing HOW to use the brakes, why and when, how much, and practiced is what keeps a rider upright and in control versus dumping the bike on sliding tires due to clamping on the brakes.

Same and even moreso for countersteering. Know the technique, practice the technique, AND apply the technique with proper visual control and throttle control and the brain WILL do what it has to do. I have proof of this on a back-road twisty in Missouri. Riding two up, came into a cresting right hander at 60mph, to find the turn was a decreasing radius, and there was a pickup in the other lane. I maintained throttle, pressed hard right and looked to the turn exit. Dragging my boot edge, centerstand and passenger boot edge, but the bike stuck steady through the turn. Had I not previously practiced CS techniques with strong visual techniques, I likely would have chopped the throttle off, looked at the truck and run wide, hopefully missing the truck.
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Old 06-01-2013, 08:40 AM   #566
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Allright, I hate to throw a Monkey Wrench into things here, but I have been reading this back and forth (joexr, philb) and from my 40 years of experience in many aspects of the motorcycle industry my experience has been that certain people learn different ways. There is no way anybody can teach my Wife anything about any subject with a book, yet she is smart, and very accomplished at work and some sports, but only through doing. One of my best friends on the other hand (and someone I currently ride with on occasion) very much needs a full explanation (by person, or book, movie, etc) to visualize what he is trying to do, and it greatly speeds up his learning of any activity. There are Hundreds, or Thousands of people reading these threads, and it is pretty much a mathmatical certainty that there are some of both types and many more. So really you are both right on some level depending on who is reading it. That is also why it is up to the reader, especially NOOB's to be carefull and analyze what their normal learning curve/style is, and only proceed with advice that they can tell feels right to them. Both of you have given good advise that will work well for some people, its just that the students vary greatly and have to read all this and then make the final call for themself.

Oh yeah, and Boon Booni is still the best rider on this thread (he claimed it first).
Right on !!! The other day while meandering along some twisty roads and still trying to 'understand' the whole countersteering thing I suddenly found myself looking at it from the other side of the coin as it were. That is, it suddenly struck me how COUNTERINTUITIVE what I was doing is! - yes, you do 'steer left to go right' etc etc etc - but for a couple of seconds I experienced total brain freeze and good job I did not have to turn for a few seconds becuase it was total confusion as to what way to turn the handlebars. I am giving up trying to 'figure it out' - I just do it. I've never fallen off or run wide in all the years riding some variety of two wheeled conveyance and as far as 'emergency swerves' etc I figure it will not be too much of an 'emergency' as long as I continue my policy of not speeding, not riding beyond my capability etc. In other words I 'know' how to steer - I just don't know how to 'explain' it : )
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Old 06-01-2013, 08:58 AM   #567
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[- . In other words I 'know' how to steer - I just don't know how to 'explain' it : )[/QUOTE]
Nobody has to explain it to anybody , it's just something that's done . Anything with two inline wheels , that's how it is turned , no ifs , ands or buts.
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Old 06-01-2013, 09:19 AM   #568
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[- . In other words I 'know' how to steer - I just don't know how to 'explain' it : )
Nobody has to explain it to anybody , it's just something that's done . Anything with two inline wheels , that's how it is turned , no ifs , ands or buts.[/QUOTE]

Like I said way back - they confused the hell out of me at the Riders Edge class I took. For starters they need to stop saying 'press' the handlebars, - what swivel-eyed old loonie thought that was a good decriptive to use for what you do to steer a motorcycle?
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Old 06-01-2013, 09:53 AM   #569
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... and as far as 'emergency swerves' etc I figure it will not be too much of an 'emergency' as long as I continue my policy of not speeding, not riding beyond my capability etc. In other words I 'know' how to steer - I just don't know how to 'explain' it : )
If you ride long enough, you *will* encounter emergency situations, and a safe rider should know how to handle them. Practicing emergency maneuvers -- swerving, braking, etc. -- is important. Knowing what you are doing when you practice them is more effective and intelligent. Counting on the idea that if you ride conservatively you will never have to make an emergency maneuver is not the best of ideas.

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Old 06-02-2013, 01:00 AM   #570
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If you ride long enough, you *will* encounter emergency situations, and a safe rider should know how to handle them. Practicing emergency maneuvers -- swerving, braking, etc. -- is important. Knowing what you are doing when you practice them is more effective and intelligent. Counting on the idea that if you ride conservatively you will never have to make an emergency maneuver is not the best of ideas.

PhilB
I see what you are saying Phil. I am always aware that stuff happens, had a close call just a few weeks ago myself. I guess what I was trying to say is that at the relatively lower speeds than most etc that I go I am pretty confident that I can swerve etc in time to avoid most things the road might throw at me. I kind of understand the countersteering/gyroscopic effect/all the physics stuff mentioned by so many but the concrete way can see it is that the body lean/bike lean etc is an effect of the affect of the front wheel turning and 'throwing' the bike in the opposite direction and so starting the 'real' turn. It still - and probably always will - feels like its all down to body lean to me but so far I've never tried to steer a two wheeler like it was a trike or a four wheeled vehicle so I think I have the reflexes without fully understanding the math - it was some of the terminology used at the Riders Edge class that confused the heck out of me and I hit a cone on that part of the test. I've set up empty milk containers in the same configuration since and have not hit them so I think I am as 'safe' as I can be especially as I do practice on the road around manhole covers etc. : )
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