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Old 06-14-2013, 03:11 AM   #676
hippiebrian
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How is this mind fest still going on? All this emphasis on countersteering. Rid a motorcycle? Don't stay in a straight line? Guess what, you're countersteering. Period. Laws of physics.

The real practice, as I've said before, about taking a curve is looking through it. Turn your head. Practice that.

Slow down. Turn your head. Accelerate through the curve.

That is all there is to it. Doesn't need 120+ pages to explain.
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Old 06-14-2013, 06:26 AM   #677
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
How is this mind fest still going on? All this emphasis on countersteering. Rid a motorcycle? Don't stay in a straight line? Guess what, you're countersteering. Period. Laws of physics.

The real practice, as I've said before, about taking a curve is looking through it. Turn your head. Practice that.

Slow down. Turn your head. Accelerate through the curve.

That is all there is to it. Doesn't need 120+ pages to explain.

+1, your brain figures things out quickly, and will adjust the inputs to achieve the desired results. Other wise none of us would have learned to walk.
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Old 06-14-2013, 07:19 AM   #678
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well some people like to understand how things work. without knowing how things work we probably wouldn't know the correct techniques that allow people to operate the thing without knowing how it works.
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Old 06-14-2013, 07:47 AM   #679
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well some people like to understand how things work. without knowing how things work we probably wouldn't know the correct techniques that allow people to operate the thing without knowing how it works.

Well as an Engineer, I do agree, but the single most important thing for getting a motorcycle around a turn in a safe manner is not analysis of the inputs, but VISION. As I said the Brain will figure it out as long as it receives the correct goal. We all have had, or seen target fixation, and it is a leading cause of crashes, IMHO. And in target fixation what happens?? You go WHERE you were LOOKING, so proper analysis says if I look where I want to go, I will get there.

Vision is where it is at when it comes time to navigate around a corner.
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Old 06-14-2013, 11:17 AM   #680
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PFFOG View Post
Well as an Engineer, I do agree, but the single most important thing for getting a motorcycle around a turn in a safe manner is not analysis of the inputs, but VISION. As I said the Brain will figure it out as long as it receives the correct goal. We all have had, or seen target fixation, and it is a leading cause of crashes, IMHO. And in target fixation what happens?? You go WHERE you were LOOKING, so proper analysis says if I look where I want to go, I will get there.

Vision is where it is at when it comes time to navigate around a corner.
The problem is that riding is not natural to our brains, we have to re-program that computer with understanding and practice; .....well with practice only for some.

Vision is the input, the brain is the processor and the muscles are the output.
Vision can be correct, but if something fails in any of the other two steps, we go down.

You can or not understand the technique, but the quickness of the two last steps during an emergency situation (all SRs are sparking like firework and we forget right from left) will match precision only if we have spent enough time re-program that computer and those muscles to do the right thing at the wrong moment.

Unfortunately, many riders have been pushing the left grip in a desperate attempt to steer away from a danger coming fast from their left side.
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Old 06-14-2013, 02:39 PM   #681
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........................

Unfortunately, many riders have been pushing the left grip in a desperate attempt to steer away from a danger coming fast from their left side, While staring straight at the danger, had they looked WHERE they wanted to go, chances are they would have avoided it.

Let me finish your thought.
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Old 06-14-2013, 03:28 PM   #682
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well some people like to understand how things work. without knowing how things work we probably wouldn't know the correct techniques that allow people to operate the thing without knowing how it works.
Like walking.
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Old 06-14-2013, 08:52 PM   #683
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Originally Posted by PFFOG View Post
Let me finish your thought.
Indeed; that is what our brain has been programmed to do while running away from danger.
That is the exact reason that makes training so important: because the mechanisms of riding and running are very different.
Riding cycles is not natural, we have to learn it deep into the neurons (vision, processing and muscle coordination) or the natural instincts will take over at the second of truth.
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Old 06-17-2013, 03:25 PM   #684
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True about vision, as I found nothing impacted improving my riding more than assertive and accurate use of my vision. But, I do agree that at least some understanding of the phyics of how a motorcycle handles is very beneficial. But the rider does not HAVE to understand the physics, but rather know some unique physics are involved and simply use it properly.

So again, just try countersteering, feel how the bike reacts and use it. But to over-analyze it to death gains nothing if its not used enough to understand it does work.

But back to vision and not knowing something of countersteering. I recall reading a story about a Canadian hockey star, clearly an athelete with probably great visual ability and physical skill. He bought a sport-bike, his first ever bike I recall. While riding it home, his girlfriend behind him following in a car, he rounds a turn, on-coming truck in the other lane. He fails to make the turn, and rides head-on into the front of the truck, killing him. Now, maybe he had great physical ability, likely had great visual ability/skill as most professional atheletes do, but not knowing how to make a bike lean, killed him.
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Old 06-17-2013, 04:02 PM   #685
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Oh, the pretentiousness

Leon Camier! World Champion of what? He needs instruction.

I'll quote the words of Lee Trevino. Trevino never had an instructor or coach, stating "I've never met an instructor I couldn't beat on the golf course."

You self-aggrandizing "instructors" are trying to teach something anyone on a motorcycle instinctively knows.

Read this: http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Jan/090102b.htm

As "instructors," you might learn something.

But probably not. You're like Health and Safety for Motorcyclists.
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Old 06-17-2013, 04:07 PM   #686
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Originally Posted by vortexau View Post
Not difficult to understand.






Now, with these TWO vehicles cornering on two wheels that's no longer true!
Why is the guy sticking his leg out? He's not gaining anything from doing that at all. He's not holding the bike more upright because he's sticking his knee out. And...he's at the apex.

Point: not made. Failbot says: FAIL. But thanks for trying.

Y'all should go to someone's instruction facility who knows how to ride. Like Colin Edwards' Boot Camp. I've never heard the word "countersteering" there. But I did learn a lot about body positioning, throttle control and balance.
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Old 06-17-2013, 05:35 PM   #687
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Well... I was on my Trance 2 mountain bike on Saturday, doing a 35 mile off-road ride with my wife. I got to thinking about this thread, and I realized I was turning the bike with no counter-steering. I tried to turn it with counter steering, simply was not working, and probably due to the speed. Pretty sure I counter steer on my road bike, speeds are much higher. Mind you, the mountain bike weighs next to nothing compared to the weight of the rider... and we were averaging 8-16 mph ish.

That said, I KNOW I counter steer on my motorcycles. In my brain I even think "left turn, push on left bar (and/or pull on right bar) and vice versa for right turns. I don't think "turn" the bars in the direction you want to go.

THAT said, I believe given how my bicycle turns, esp. at lower speeds, that you can turn at some speed (below X mph) and that you are not counter steering to initiate the turn. Above *some* mph, you MUST use counter steering to turn a motorcycle. I know some folks here say no matter what the speed you are counter steering, but I believe at close to walking speed, you are not.

There... discuss. And I thought I was out.

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Old 06-17-2013, 05:56 PM   #688
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THAT said, I believe given how my bicycle turns, esp. at lower speeds, that you can turn at some speed (below X mph) and that you are not counter steering to initiate the turn. Above *some* mph, you MUST use counter steering to turn a motorcycle. I know some folks here say no matter what the speed you are counter steering, but I believe at close to walking speed, you are not.
What is it that causes the bike to lean in the direction you want to turn ?
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Old 06-18-2013, 04:31 AM   #689
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Milosh, you realize your two posts are saying the exact opposite things, right? In your first post you're ridiculing the idea of instruction. In the second post you recommend getting instruction.

It's not a huge deal. We're used to idiotic crap in this thread. It is mildly amusing though.
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Old 06-18-2013, 05:20 AM   #690
Rucksta
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Has anybody figured out the geometry parameters that control the transition speed between
steering and counter steering and what affects the overlap between the two?

Even if you haven't figured it out it may be entertaining to hear some different theories.
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