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Old 09-05-2013, 04:45 PM   #1036
simonpig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
Yes but you still initiated a counter steer. (the wheel pointed to the outside to allow the bike to fall inside) Pushing on the inside bar is the most efficient way to initiate a counter steer. NOT the only way.

Without a counter steer taking place the bike would simply fall over. (At any speed)
You mean without COUNTERBALANCING, the bike will simply fall over at any speed. There's a difference. You could balance a bike at 0mph with counterbalancing.
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Old 09-05-2013, 04:59 PM   #1037
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I'm going to STFU as Dakez has kindly asked me to.

But I'll just say that if you're hauling ass on fast sweeping gravel and drifting the rear wheel, that you are executing the art of countersteering and counterbalancing, and you WILL love it.

Peace out!
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Old 09-05-2013, 05:40 PM   #1038
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rucksta View Post
Of course you are right about the risk of high side or rear wheel catching up to the front but finding the balance is the art of sliding.
Another factor illustrated here is look where you want to go and you'll go where you are looking.
That at least seems to be a constant most of us agree on.

Once the rear wheel describes an arc wider than that of the front wheel the dynamics change.
(see recent post that mentioned out tracking and had a nice diagram - the above shot is the opposite to out tracking)
The gyroscope effect is still there but the countersteering effect is no longer evident.

Increased throttle tightens the turn.
Turn right (push left) widens the turn.
(don't try to tighten the turn with steering effort alone or you will explore the high side event)

Traction adjustment is via weight distribution and peg pressure
Weight outside peg to increase traction on rear
Weight forward to reduce push (understeer, front slide).
Forward and back body weight distribution can be effective but tends to limit the left right counterbalance options to adjust for the other inputs in all but the fittest, most skilled and agile riders.

If you want to examine the mechanics to the point of confusion refer to Tony Foale and consider how his slip angle calculations are altered once the wheel(s) start(s) to slide.
Don't be confused about the exteneded leg supporting the vehicle making it non mono track - it's just a feeler and a balance aid.

If you tell me the shot is of you the year you won the #1 plate I'm going to be very embarrased and outed as an Internet crack pot .
You gave an exact explanation , him not so much.
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Old 09-05-2013, 05:47 PM   #1039
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Originally Posted by simonpig View Post
You're right about the dynamics changing once you initiate a drift, but to get into that drift state that you have to countersteer and that's the point I was making.

Once you're in a drift, you don't have to push as hard since, as you mentioned other forces come into play to control and balance the bike.
You would STEER to initiate the drift , then countersteer to keep from just spinning out. As was already said , countersteering widens the arc , less countersteering tightens it.
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Old 09-05-2013, 05:57 PM   #1040
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Originally Posted by stucknarut View Post
The thought of practicing the above makes my sphincter tighten. My very few experiences drifting a turn, unwillingly and briefly, were universally stupid - usually too hot into a turn, or the guy in front checks up in a hot corner and I trail brake and countersteer, and break loose the back tire for a few scary seconds. To put it mildly, it was a nervous point. Headed to the track in a few weeks, any practice suggestions to ease into it and avoid the high side?
Big , wet grass field with a half worn rear knobby. Start with donuts until you can do it both direction with your feet on the pegs and go from there. Some of the most fun you'll ever have with your clothes on.

joexr screwed with this post 09-05-2013 at 06:11 PM
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Old 09-05-2013, 06:09 PM   #1041
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
Goes to show you...countersteering at higher speed, turn the bars with the turn at low speed. Wether you know it or not!

You countersteer to initiate a turn at all speeds.
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Old 09-05-2013, 06:12 PM   #1042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simonpig View Post
There's zero counter steering going on here. You're not going fast enough, therefore limited gyroscopic effect.

Simple fact is that, if you're able to turn the handlebars in the direction you're going to steer, its not countersteering.

Countersteering doesn't depend on gyroscopic effects.
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Old 09-05-2013, 07:42 PM   #1043
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Originally Posted by Klay View Post
You countersteer to initiate a turn at all speeds.

People have been told they have to countersteer to make the motorcycle change direction at any speed. This is not the case, at low speeds countersteering to initiate a turn doesn't work.

I'm going to bow out here (look at those pictures I posted earlier and tell me how many of them are countersteering ) by saying what I started out saying:

Teaching countersteering (or not countersteering) is not necessary for a new rider. They will make the bike change direction by doing either wether they know it or not, so why clutter their heads with essentially unnecessary information> Slow, look, accelerate. Throw in there that the motorcycle will do more than they think it will, so if the corner decreases radius, turn tighter. That's all that should be in their minds. Extra clutter can be dangerous.
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Old 09-05-2013, 07:47 PM   #1044
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
(look at those pictures I posted earlier and tell me how many of them are countersteering ) by saying what I started out
Every one of those pictures shows someone already leaned over and turning. To get to that leaned over state, they had to counter steer.
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Old 09-05-2013, 07:54 PM   #1045
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
People have been told they have to countersteer to make the motorcycle change direction at any speed. This is not the case, at low speeds countersteering to initiate a turn doesn't work.
YOU are WRONG! >period<
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Old 09-05-2013, 08:07 PM   #1046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
People have been told they have to countersteer to make the motorcycle change direction at any speed. This is not the case, at low speeds countersteering to initiate a turn doesn't work.

I'm going to bow out here (look at those pictures I posted earlier and tell me how many of them are countersteering ) by saying what I started out saying:

Teaching countersteering (or not countersteering) is not necessary for a new rider. They will make the bike change direction by doing either wether they know it or not, so why clutter their heads with essentially unnecessary information> Slow, look, accelerate. Throw in there that the motorcycle will do more than they think it will, so if the corner decreases radius, turn tighter. That's all that should be in their minds. Extra clutter can be dangerous.
Those pictures show bikes already in a turn after a lean has been established. The lean was established through countersteering. New riders need to learn countersteering so they consciously know what to to do in tense situations. If they haven't learned countersteering, they tense up and go off the road. You're giving extremely bad and potentially dangerous advice.
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Old 09-05-2013, 08:09 PM   #1047
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
Really? Please tell the class just how the rider got the bike to fall into the turn so he could steer into the turn without FIRST counter steering away from the turn to make the bike fall into the turn.

Hint: The rider is counter steering.
Please class, take a seat and hold your breath for a minute.

I cannot know if the rider was counter-steering, but I know that counter-steering at that low speed doesn't do much to make the bike fall into the turn.

For that speed (around 2 mph) and radius of turn (around 15 feet), the rider may be able to apply around 15 pounds of lateral centrifugal force at a CG about 3 feet high (torque of 540 in-lb).

If the bike + rider weight 400 pounds, he can achieve the same effect by moving that CG less than 1.5 inches away from the line that connects the contact patches, by upper-body lean and/or steering.

Either way, he only needs to lean the bike 2 degrees to re-establish balance during those slow turns.

As in this particular case we are talking about peanuts regarding centrifugal force and lean angle, the input of the rider is not evident enough as for that instructor to certify the need for "pure counter-steering".
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Old 09-05-2013, 08:13 PM   #1048
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Originally Posted by lnewqban View Post
Please class, take a seat and hold your breath for a minute.

I cannot know if the rider was counter-steering, but I know that counter-steering at that low speed doesn't do much to make the bike fall into the turn.

For that speed (around 2 mph) and radius of turn (around 15 feet), the rider may be able to apply around 15 pounds of lateral centrifugal force at a CG about 3 feet high (torque of 540 in-lb).

If the bike + rider weight 400 pounds, he can achieve the same effect by moving that CG less than 1.5 inches away from the line that connects the contact patches, by upper-body lean and/or steering.

Either way, he only needs to lean the bike 2 degrees to re-establish balance during those slow turns.

As in this particular case we are talking about peanuts regarding centrifugal force and lean angle, the input of the rider is not evident enough as for that instructor to certify the need for "pure counter-steering".

Upper body lean doesn't change the center of mass of the bike and rider. Countersteering is extremely effective at speeds under 5 mph. You steer the bike out from underneath the center of mass and the bike falls to the opposite side.
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Old 09-05-2013, 08:18 PM   #1049
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rucksta View Post
Sorry for the long post I got a bit carried away.
In that case I won't quote the whole thing, but thanks, that is all great stuff. I practice rear wheel lock-ups as part of panic braking, will start there and try to learn to slide the rear out and ride out of it. I can see I'm gonna be buying some new tires sooner than planned.
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Old 09-05-2013, 09:30 PM   #1050
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Originally Posted by lnewqban View Post
Please class, take a seat and hold your breath for a minute.

I cannot know if the rider was counter-steering, but I know that counter-steering at that low speed doesn't do much to make the bike fall into the turn.

For that speed (around 2 mph) and radius of turn (around 15 feet), the rider may be able to apply around 15 pounds of lateral centrifugal force at a CG about 3 feet high (torque of 540 in-lb).

If the bike + rider weight 400 pounds, he can achieve the same effect by moving that CG less than 1.5 inches away from the line that connects the contact patches, by upper-body lean and/or steering.

Either way, he only needs to lean the bike 2 degrees to re-establish balance during those slow turns.

As in this particular case we are talking about peanuts regarding centrifugal force and lean angle, the input of the rider is not evident enough as for that instructor to certify the need for "pure counter-steering".
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