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Old 09-05-2013, 09:31 PM   #1051
hippiebrian
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Well, seems like the concensus is I could be wrong or, on the other hand, I could be right.

Either way, it's pointless. If those of us who've been riding for years (some of us decades) can't even come to a decision on how a motorcycle changes direction. why are we even bothering trying to teach new riders?

It just adds confusion where their heads should be clear, which is my original point.
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Old 09-05-2013, 09:34 PM   #1052
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
If those of us who've been riding for years (some of us decades) can't even come to a decision on how a motorcycle changes direction. why are we even bothering trying to teach new riders?

So the new rider knows what to do and how to react when they panic and target fixate.
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Old 09-05-2013, 09:38 PM   #1053
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Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
So the new rider knows what to do and how to react when they panic and target fixate.

Now countersteering fixes target fixation?

Teach them to look through the curve. Look where they want to go. THAT fixes target fixation, not countersteering!
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Old 09-05-2013, 09:47 PM   #1054
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
Well, seems like the concensus is I could be wrong or, on the other hand, I could be right.

Either way, it's pointless. If those of us who've been riding for years (some of us decades) can't even come to a decision on how a motorcycle changes direction. why are we even bothering trying to teach new riders?

It just adds confusion where their heads should be clear, which is my original point.
There's not the slightest confusion involved. Countersteering is how we initiate leans while riding to go around corners. Nothing could be more clear and simple. New riders need to remember to look through the turn and push on the bars the way they want to go. Your information to the contrary is in error and dangerous.

You can't spell "consensus."
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Old 09-05-2013, 09:55 PM   #1055
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Now countersteering fixes target fixation?

Teach them to look through the curve. Look where they want to go. THAT fixes target fixation, not countersteering!
Your narrow mind is failing to grasp that target fixating does not only happen in a corner.

Picture if you will a controlled access highway. A pick up pulling a fifth wheel in lane one. Lane two is fairly open so new rider in lane two decides to go ahead and pass truck and trailer. Truck not seeing rider begins to come over to lane two. New rider who has driven for years, heart rate spikes, panics and steers/swerves away from truck which actually puts him in a counter steer collision course with said truck. Realizing his/her grave mistake rider forces a counter steer but it is too late. Contact is made and rider gets slammed all because his so called friend that grew up riding bicycles and never even heard the term "counter steer" until he had been riding for 22 years said he didn't need to bother learning how to counter steer... "Just do it"


With friends like that who needs enemies?
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Old 09-05-2013, 09:58 PM   #1056
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Originally Posted by Klay View Post
There's not the slightest confusion involved. Countersteering is how we initiate leans while riding to go around corners. Nothing could be more clear and simple. New riders need to remember to look through the turn and push on the bars the way they want to go. Your information to the contrary is in error and dangerous.

You can't spell "consensus."
Yup, can't spell.

Also, again, I was riding a motorcycle for 25 years before I even knew what countersteering was. I guess, by all rights, from what I've heard here I should have crashed and died. Espescially on decreasing radius turns!

But I didn't. The reason I didn't is because I was countersteering, and when I got suprised by an unexpected decreasing turn, I pressed harder on the handlebars.

Countersteering, like gravity, works wether you understand it or not. If a new person can change the direction of a motorcycle at speed, they are countersteering. Period.

The three biggest mistakes new riders make are 1. riding too fast for conditions, 2. not looking through the curve and 3. target fixating.

None of these can be fixed by understanding countersteering. Keeping as clear a head as possible is essential, and giving a new rider more information than they really need is doing just that.
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Old 09-05-2013, 10:02 PM   #1057
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Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
Your narrow mind is failing to grasp that target fixating does not only happen in a corner.



With friends like that who needs enemies?
Picture if you will a controlled access highway. A pick up pulling a fifth wheel in lane one. Lane two is fairly open so new rider in lane two decides to go ahead and pass truck and trailer. Truck not seeing rider begins to come over to lane two. New rider who has driven for years, heart rate spikes, panics and steers/swerves away from truck which actually puts him in a counter steer collision course with said truck. Realizing his/her grave mistake rider forces a counter steer but it is too late. Contact is made and rider gets slammed all because his so called friend that grew up riding bicycles and never even heard the term "counter steer" until he had been riding for 22 years said he didn't need to bother learning how to counter steer... "Just do it"

Do you think he would do the same thing on a bicycle? No, because countersteering is done without thinking about it. If he wouldn't do it on a bicycle, he won't do it on a motorcycle. Period.

I am not trying to kill people with ignorance. I am trying to new people to ride with a clear head. Giving people information they don't need is doing just the opposite. Add confusion to the above scenario and you really have a disaster.
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Old 09-05-2013, 10:03 PM   #1058
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
Yup, can't spell.

Also, again, I was riding a motorcycle for 25 years before I even knew what countersteering was. I guess, by all rights, from what I've heard here I should have crashed and died. Espescially on decreasing radius turns!

But I didn't. The reason I didn't is because I was countersteering, and when I got suprised by an unexpected decreasing turn, I pressed harder on the handlebars.

Countersteering, like gravity, works wether you understand it or not. If a new person can change the direction of a motorcycle at speed, they are countersteering. Period.

The three biggest mistakes new riders make are 1. riding too fast for conditions, 2. not looking through the curve and 3. target fixating.

None of these can be fixed by understanding countersteering. Keeping as clear a head as possible is essential, and giving a new rider more information than they really need is doing just that.

You knew what countersteering was, but you didn't call it by the same word. That doesn't mean that new riders don't need to understand countersteering. Knowledge of countersteering is arguably more important than the other things you say new riders need. In fact, that's the first concept I'd mention to a new rider.

Your inability to spell words like "surprising," "especially," and "whether" make you look like a bad person from whom to take advice.
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Old 09-05-2013, 10:07 PM   #1059
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You knew what countersteering was, but you didn't call it by the same word. That doesn't mean that new riders don't need to understand countersteering. Knowledge of countersteering is arguably more important than the other things you say new riders need. In fact, that's the first concept I'd mention to a new rider.

Your inability to spell words like "surprising," "especially," and "whether" make you look like a bad person from whom to take advice.
No, seriously, I had absolutely no idea I was doing it. When I first heard of it, I thought it was complete bullshit until I payed attention to what I was doing and realized I'd been doing it all my life.

Had no clue.

It became a cool to know fact but nothing else. The knowledge didn't improve my riding skills, they had been honed by practice (and continue to be).

If spelling incorrectly makes me look like a "bad person from whom to take advice" to you, I feel sorry for you. Seriously.
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Old 09-05-2013, 10:07 PM   #1060
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Do you think he would do the same thing on a bicycle? No, because countersteering is done without thinking about it. If he wouldn't do it on a bicycle, he won't do it on a motorcycle. Period.

I am not trying to kill people with ignorance. I am trying to new people to ride with a clear head. Giving people information they don't need is doing just the opposite. Add confusion to the above scenario and you really have a disaster.

People on bicycles who don't consciously understand countersteering are the accident victims I clean up after. You are on a path to kill people through the wanton promulgation of ignorance.
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Old 09-05-2013, 10:09 PM   #1061
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People on bicycles who don't consciously understand countersteering are the accident victims I clean up after. You are on a path to kill people through the wanton promulgation of ignorance.

Bullshit. Ask 90% of people what countersteering is and wether they do it and they will look at you like you are crazy. Even though they have on bicycles for years, and most of them have never serioulsy crashed.
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Old 09-05-2013, 10:10 PM   #1062
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No, seriously, I had absolutely no idea I was doing it. When I first heard of it, I thought it was complete bullshit until I payed attention to what I was doing and realized I'd been doing it all my life.
It's good that you can admit to your inability to recognize what you are doing. You shouldn't recommend that others follow the same path just because you got lucky and lived through it.
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Old 09-05-2013, 10:12 PM   #1063
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Bullshit. Ask 90% of people what countersteering is and wether they do it and they will look at you like you are crazy. Even though they have on bicycles for years, and most of them have never serioulsy crashed.
Fact. I'm the one who has picked up after numerous bicyclists who have depended on "instinct" and been unable to make a corner because they didn't understand countersteering. They didn't realize what they were doing under less severe corners and therefore didn't have the tools to negotiate a surprise corner or incident.
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Old 09-05-2013, 10:14 PM   #1064
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Fact. I'm the one who has picked up after numerous bicyclists who have depended on "instinct" and been unable to make a corner because they didn't understand countersteering.
No, they were unable to make a corner because they were going faster than either their bicycle, tires or ability could handle.

Unless it was the first time they ever changed direction on a bicycle.
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Old 09-05-2013, 10:17 PM   #1065
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No, they were unable to make a corner because they were going faster than either their bicycle, tires or ability could handle.

Unless it was the first time they ever changed direction on a bicycle.
No, they don't make the corner because they don't understand countersteering, panic, and ride right off the corner, without realizing that their bicycle or motorcycle is capable of negotiating corners far more extreme than the one they are going through.
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