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Old 09-06-2013, 12:50 AM   #1066
hippiebrian
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Originally Posted by Klay View Post
No, they don't make the corner because they don't understand countersteering, panic, and ride right off the corner, without realizing that their bicycle or motorcycle is capable of negotiating corners far more extreme than the one they are going through.
My point is they can realize that their motorcycle or bicycle is capavble of more extreme cornering than they thought without knowing what countersteering is.

It's called practice.
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Old 09-06-2013, 05:02 AM   #1067
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epic thread thread is epic

over 1000 posts on the elusive art of...countersteering
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Old 09-06-2013, 05:30 AM   #1068
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
It just adds confusion where their heads should be clear, which is my original point.
Maybe it's all the pot you smoked that makes it difficult and confusing to hold thoughts in your head. Most folks can do it without too much effort.
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Old 09-06-2013, 05:54 AM   #1069
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..

I know about counteersteering and use it consciously as well as unconsciously, but it doesn't necessarily make me faster or safer. I ride a dualsport bike with a small group of friends, our ride leader can negotiate the twisties faster standing, with the bike nearly vertical, than I can in a full tuck dragging my pegs, and he does it on worn knobbies. In the last 5 or 6 years I have followed him thousands of miles in amazement at his ease of riding a controlled line at speed. If you ask him how he does it he'll just smile and say, "I don't know, I just ride".

To assume that someone has wrecked because of a lack of counteersteer knowledge is just that, an assumption. While it may be easy to make the argument in an internet thread it carries no weight with anyone with enough sense to think for themselves in the first place. Without ever seeing an accident scene I could say that the rider was distracted and ran off the road, and be accurate much of the time, but to suggest that he / she might have ridden (cumulatively) hundreds, perhaps thousands of miles to arrive at the scene and then wrecked because they didn't understand countersteering, is an unfair assumption that countersteering would have made the dirt not get in the eye or the bee in the helmet.

..
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Old 09-06-2013, 05:56 AM   #1070
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
Now countersteering fixes target fixation?

Teach them to look through the curve. Look where they want to go. THAT fixes target fixation, not countersteering!

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!

YOUR BRAIN WILL ADJUST YOUR ACTIONS AND GET YOU THERE!

If you have to think about your actions, you are already TOAST!
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Old 09-06-2013, 06:01 AM   #1071
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Originally Posted by Klay View Post
No, they don't make the corner because they don't understand countersteering, panic, and ride right off the corner, without realizing that their bicycle or motorcycle is capable of negotiating corners far more extreme than the one they are going through.

TRACK DAYS!!!!

Without practice, knowlage of a skill is useless!

Hope you can hear me!!!!
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Old 09-06-2013, 06:35 AM   #1072
lnewqban
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klay View Post
Upper body lean doesn't change the center of mass of the bike and rider. Countersteering is extremely effective at speeds under 5 mph. You steer the bike out from underneath the center of mass and the bike falls to the opposite side.
I respectfully disagree with both statements.

At speeds low enough as to not generate any important centrifugal force, CG and steering geometry are the leaders of the small roll needed to achieve the small lean angle needed.
Not only the combined CG does move sideways by upper body, it also moves due to steering geometry, ...........and it follows the bike trajectory.

As speed increases, the power of counter-steering grows in a quadratic ratio (centripetal acceleration and force depend on the square of speed).
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Old 09-06-2013, 07:08 AM   #1073
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Originally Posted by lnewqban View Post
I respectfully disagree with both statements.

At speeds low enough as to not generate any important centrifugal force, CG and steering geometry are the leaders of the small roll needed to achieve the small lean angle needed.
Not only the combined CG does move sideways by upper body, it also moves due to steering geometry, ...........and it follows the bike trajectory.

As speed increases, the power of counter-steering grows in a quadratic ratio (centripetal acceleration and force depend on the square of speed).



Oh, it follows the "trajectory," eh? And it grows in a "quadratic ratio?"
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Old 09-06-2013, 07:10 AM   #1074
Klay
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
My point is they can realize that their motorcycle or bicycle is capavble of more extreme cornering than they thought without knowing what countersteering is.

It's called practice.
Yes, practicing countersteering is a good idea.
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Old 09-06-2013, 07:34 AM   #1075
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Originally Posted by Klay View Post


Oh, it follows the "trajectory," eh? And it grows in a "quadratic ratio?"
If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit.
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Old 09-06-2013, 08:04 AM   #1076
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Center-stand View Post
..

I know about counteersteering and use it consciously as well as unconsciously, but it doesn't necessarily make me faster or safer. I ride a dualsport bike with a small group of friends, our ride leader can negotiate the twisties faster standing, with the bike nearly vertical, than I can in a full tuck dragging my pegs, and he does it on worn knobbies. In the last 5 or 6 years I have followed him thousands of miles in amazement at his ease of riding a controlled line at speed. If you ask him how he does it he'll just smile and say, "I don't know, I just ride".

To assume that someone has wrecked because of a lack of counteersteer knowledge is just that, an assumption. While it may be easy to make the argument in an internet thread it carries no weight with anyone with enough sense to think for themselves in the first place. Without ever seeing an accident scene I could say that the rider was distracted and ran off the road, and be accurate much of the time, but to suggest that he / she might have ridden (cumulatively) hundreds, perhaps thousands of miles to arrive at the scene and then wrecked because they didn't understand countersteering, is an unfair assumption that countersteering would have made the dirt not get in the eye or the bee in the helmet.

..
either you are exaggerating for effect or you must be poorest rider on the planet. standing and near vertical ? fast? twisteys? does not compute.
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Old 09-06-2013, 08:41 AM   #1077
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either you are exaggerating for effect or you must be poorest rider on the planet. standing and near vertical ? fast? twisteys? does not compute.
You haven't seen RB ride. I'm not the best rider on the planet, not a racer, but I get around the turns OK. Have no reason to intentionally exaggerate. He always picks a smooth, long line through the turns, maintains speed, and yes, can ride faster standing than I can sitting. I've watched him put his bike on or near the white line at the edge of a road and follow it for miles, never moving away more than mere inches. He does things seemingly without effort that I can't do trying hard. Most of the group I ride with have been riding 35 years or more, all of us raced dirt bikes in one form or another in our youth, some continue to race in various series with vintage bikes and such. I just bring him up because he is an exceptional rider and I have never heard him mention countersteering. Maybe to make sure we don't argue over something unimportant I should say, "he rides faster standing than I can "comfortably" ride sitting down".

With all the BS that's been spouted in this thread I can't believe you picked that line out.

..
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Old 09-06-2013, 08:52 AM   #1078
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Originally Posted by Center-stand View Post
You haven't seen RB ride. I'm not the best rider on the planet, not a racer, but I get around the turns OK. Have no reason to intentionally exaggerate. He always picks a smooth, long line through the turns, maintains speed, and yes, can ride faster standing than I can sitting. I've watched him put his bike on or near the white line at the edge of a road and follow it for miles, never moving away more than mere inches. He does things seemingly without effort that I can't do trying hard. Most of the group I ride with have been riding 35 years or more, all of us raced dirt bikes in one form or another in our youth, some continue to race in various series with vintage bikes and such. I just bring him up because he is an exceptional rider and I have never heard him mention countersteering. Maybe to make sure we don't argue over something unimportant I should say, "he rides faster standing than I can "comfortably" ride sitting down".

With all the BS that's been spouted in this thread I can't believe you picked that line out.

..
When they can't come up with a credible argument , they resort to anal nitpicking.
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:46 AM   #1079
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Originally Posted by Boon Booni View Post
If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit.
Saw that on a bumper sticker years ago. Words to live by!!! Especially in this thread!!!
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Old 09-06-2013, 10:58 AM   #1080
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Originally Posted by Center-stand View Post
You haven't seen RB ride. I'm not the best rider on the planet, not a racer, but I get around the turns OK. Have no reason to intentionally exaggerate. He always picks a smooth, long line through the turns, maintains speed, and yes, can ride faster standing than I can sitting. I've watched him put his bike on or near the white line at the edge of a road and follow it for miles, never moving away more than mere inches. He does things seemingly without effort that I can't do trying hard. Most of the group I ride with have been riding 35 years or more, all of us raced dirt bikes in one form or another in our youth, some continue to race in various series with vintage bikes and such. I just bring him up because he is an exceptional rider and I have never heard him mention countersteering. Maybe to make sure we don't argue over something unimportant I should say, "he rides faster standing than I can "comfortably" ride sitting down".

With all the BS that's been spouted in this thread I can't believe you picked that line out.

..
It's fun to watch you guys argue! I still don't think anyone's realized that RB's riding style is just exaggerating a neutral position because he's standing and maintains a straight line with his bike's position. He makes it look effortless because he doesn't countersteer. He sees the corner and leans at the correct time. If you don't anticipate a corner, you must countersteer to correctly turn at the right time to engage the corner and maintain your line. If you always know where you want to enter and exit a corner, you can do so by leaning the bike at the right time.

A way to try this is to remember this: Your center of mass will follow your head. Try standing up on some twisties and simply focus ahead, and use a subtle head movement to lead the new direction you want to head instead of pushing the bars. The bike will fall into the turn and if you're smooth, you can lock it into the apex and then bring your head back to center as you right yourself out of the turn. Watch racers around a track. Look at their heads. They don't pay much attention to the bike, but their head is always pointed exactly where they want to go. It takes a little courage because you will be very high and the lean angle will seem exaggerated, but it's actually just the same as sitting and leaning. You won't be able to react quickly while standing without counter-steering, but it's just an exercise.

Riding neutral is all about being subtle. It's not easy, but is the smoothest, most efficient line through a corner. The only time you need to counter steer is if the corner is so abrupt that you need to execute faster than the bike would naturally fall. When you're on the trail you do this constantly which is why for all intents and purposes, counter-steering is only a road riding discussion and doesn't apply off road where the bike floats under you.

Let the bike follow you, not you follow the bike and you'll understand what it means to ride neutral.
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