ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 01-04-2013, 12:52 AM   #106
4bikes
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Norway
Oddometer: 189
It's all here folks:

http://www.fema-online.eu/index.php?...t01returnid=15

OK, so it's not perfect english everywhere. But try to look beyond that.
4bikes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 07:25 AM   #107
IrishJohn OP
Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2012
Location: St Louis MO
Oddometer: 69
I honestly did not mean to start such an apparently contentious thread - but it does reinforce my feeling that this is such a confusing thing that it has yet to be truly broken down into 'real world' easily understood terms.

While I genuinely appreciate all the thought and efforts put into the posts I found the one from 'David' most helpful in dispelling some of my mental fog about how something with a wheel can 'turn left to go right'

Again my apologies for starting a bit of bother so soon after arrival.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David R View Post
Just a thought.

Going around a sharp right curve Bike is leaned WAAAY over.

To right the bike (stop turning and go straight) do you turn the wheel to the left?

It seems this would put the bike less under you and go deeper into the turn.
Turn the bars to the right and the bike will go back under your body towards an upright and straight position.

David

Enjoying the conversation.
__________________
Irish John
IrishJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 08:16 AM   #108
pretbek
Studly Adventurer
 
pretbek's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2008
Location: West Chester, PA
Oddometer: 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishJohn View Post
I honestly did not mean to start such an apparently contentious thread - but it does reinforce my feeling that this is such a confusing thing that it has yet to be truly broken down into 'real world' easily understood terms.

While I genuinely appreciate all the thought and efforts put into the posts I found the one from 'David' most helpful in dispelling some of my mental fog about how something with a wheel can 'turn left to go right'

Again my apologies for starting a bit of bother so soon after arrival.

I'm glad that imagining "putting the bike more/less under yourself" helps clear up the mental fog for you.

For quick reactions when you need them though, train yourself to have muscle memory to lean in the correct direction. Having just entered an oh-shit moment when riding is not the time to start reasoning which way to turn the wheel again to get the desired result. It should be visceral, which is much more immediate.
pretbek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 09:03 AM   #109
dwoodward
Beastly Adventurer
 
dwoodward's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Pacific NorthWet, Napa Valley North
Oddometer: 4,335
Quote:
Originally Posted by RVDan View Post
Please, somebody build a steering deflection gauge, hang a GoPro over it, mount another camera in a chase car, go for a ride. Time synch the videos and play them split screen so once and for all it can be seen what is really going on.
Again? This was done in the '70s- long before GoPros, when men were men and video (film, likely) cameras weighed LOTS. When I first became an MSF instructor I got a hand-out that showed pictures of the rig.

Might be fun to re-create, though. Hm...

Could do it with one GoPro. Stick it on the tank, aimed forward- the steering deflector is a wire attached to the steering stem, bent up 90 degrees, with a cardboard background behind it to show steering angle.

Hm.
dwoodward is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 11:29 AM   #110
duck
Banned
 
duck's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Location: Seattle (Berkeley with rain)
Oddometer: 10,404
If I take this thread off on a tangent will it go the other way?
duck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 04:01 PM   #111
pretbek
Studly Adventurer
 
pretbek's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2008
Location: West Chester, PA
Oddometer: 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by duck View Post
If I take this thread off on a tangent will it go the other way?
A tangent? Sorry, no, approaching 90 degrees (but never actually reaching) is the maximum. The other way as in back where it came from is not possible with a tangent.
pretbek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 08:07 PM   #112
Fajita Dave
Studly Adventurer
 
Fajita Dave's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: Barboursville, VA
Oddometer: 711
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwoodward View Post
Again? This was done in the '70s- long before GoPros, when men were men and video (film, likely) cameras weighed LOTS. When I first became an MSF instructor I got a hand-out that showed pictures of the rig.

Might be fun to re-create, though. Hm...

Could do it with one GoPro. Stick it on the tank, aimed forward- the steering deflector is a wire attached to the steering stem, bent up 90 degrees, with a cardboard background behind it to show steering angle.

Hm.
Keith Code did in the Twist of the Wrist II DVD. Has a gauge on the fuel tank with an arrow attached to the steering stem. Its extremely subtle but they have even better examples in the video.

The easiest way I found to explain counter-steering to people is by comparing it to what they feel in a car. The majority of what makes counter-steering work is simple inertia. While driving a car, when you turn left which direction does your weight shift to? To the right of course! Now think of what would happen on a motorcycle that's balanced on two round wheels. Turn the handlebars left.... the weight goes right (so you lean right).

COG has some effect since when you turn the handlebars the front wheel's contact patch moves slightly out from under the motorcycle which helps it lean. At higher speeds even gyroscopic precession has some effect from the research I've done (precession has about a 12% effect on a motorcycle changing lean angle at 60mph depending on how much the front wheel weighs... but I didn't do the testing to come up with that number). The vast majority of what makes counter steering work is the basic laws of motion. This happens at ANY speed but is more noticeable the faster you go.
__________________
2008 GSXR 600
2001 CR250R


Fajita Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 09:33 PM   #113
khager
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Granbury, TX
Oddometer: 687
Quote:
Originally Posted by duck View Post
If I take this thread off on a tangent will it go the other way?

No, but it will create an alternate thread! Alternate to you and me, but reality for everyone else of course.
khager is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 11:22 PM   #114
Dream Rider
Servant
 
Dream Rider's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Anywhere in the Northwest
Oddometer: 190
counter steer

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
This is not to be until Tuesday.

You are already countersteering if you are turning a bike or motorcycle. (they do not turn otherwise)

It is nice to know the mechanics of it however... And to practice those mechanics.

Look Left Push left Go Left
Look Right Push Right Go Right
Look through the turn. Look through the turn. LOOK THROUGH THE TURN.


The end.

Dakez has it right. This is all you need to know. push left go left push right, go right. I know a lot of good pilots that can't bleed acft brakes but they do know push down slow down. Have fun.
Dream Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2013, 07:15 AM   #115
BanjoBoy
Studly Adventurer
 
BanjoBoy's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: Northern CA
Oddometer: 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
Keith Code did in the Twist of the Wrist II DVD. Has a gauge on the fuel tank with an arrow attached to the steering stem. Its extremely subtle but they have even better examples in the video.

The easiest way I found to explain counter-steering to people is by comparing it to what they feel in a car. The majority of what makes counter-steering work is simple inertia. While driving a car, when you turn left which direction does your weight shift to? To the right of course! Now think of what would happen on a motorcycle that's balanced on two round wheels. Turn the handlebars left.... the weight goes right (so you lean right).

COG has some effect since when you turn the handlebars the front wheel's contact patch moves slightly out from under the motorcycle which helps it lean. At higher speeds even gyroscopic precession has some effect from the research I've done (precession has about a 12% effect on a motorcycle changing lean angle at 60mph depending on how much the front wheel weighs... but I didn't do the testing to come up with that number). The vast majority of what makes counter steering work is the basic laws of motion. This happens at ANY speed but is more noticeable the faster you go.
Kieth Code debunked this lame argument back in the '80s, can't believe y'all are still debate'in it?
Kieth has a no BS bike to debunk this lame BS. It haz two sets of handle bars; a normal set and a rigid set that don't turn. He lets chumps who think changing body weight steers a bike use the rigid bars and try to ride 'round the track. Needless to say, the ones use'in the rigid bars don't get very far.
Here ya go newbs
__________________
2007 FJR1300
2007 FZ6 (Dirt bike)
BanjoBoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2013, 07:44 AM   #116
Lion BR
I'd rather be riding
 
Lion BR's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Oregon
Oddometer: 3,118
Another way to understand counter steering on a motorcycle:

Get a broom, put the broom side up and with the end of the handle on your palm, try to balance it. You need space, it is better to do it outside.

Now "drive" the broom as you walk, balancing it. If you want to go right, you will find your self moving your hand left and the broom will lean right. When you want to stop going right, you will move your hand to the right. When you want to go left, you will move your hand right. The broom pivots on your palm.

Now imagine your motorcycle's handlebar is the broom, the wheel is the handle (the front wheel pivots on the ground). When you get to a curve to the right, you will want to "push" your "broom handle", the front wheel of your motorcycle, to the left and the handle bars, the broom, will "fall" to the right. You and the motorcycle will go right. That's why you turn the wheel to the right to lean left and go left. And to do that you turn the wheel to the right by pushing it on the left (or pulling on the right) side of the handlebar. Counter steering!

If you "drive" a broom like I explained, I bet you will understand the basic counter steering principle.

Leaning, gyroscope, rake, trail, tire profile (the changing wheel diameter due to lean angles) are all "accessories" to the main basic principle of balance that explains counter steering. That is, they may attenuate the effect of counter steering or will cause to require more counter steering for same turning.

Of course, I may be wrong in some explanations here, which if it is the case, one of you will point it out and I will edit my text accordingly.

Lion

edit: of course, at very very low speeds you will turn the wheel into the turn, like when you are moving the bike in the garage, or when making a tight u-turn. There is a speed though, perhaps 5mph or a little more, where the counter steering principle "starts".
__________________
Whenever we are riding, we are an ambassador to our sport

I'd rather be riding!



Lion BR screwed with this post 01-05-2013 at 08:03 AM
Lion BR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2013, 08:05 AM   #117
WFO#1
Adventurer
 
Joined: Nov 2009
Oddometer: 43
On a VSTROM forum once, after reading 10 pages of opinions on low speed turnarounds, I couldn't take it any more and sarcastically offered the advise of, " stop the bike, back pedal with feet on ground while turning handle bars, turn handle bars back the way you want to go and take off". This led to me being chastised as a unsafe practice. Hey Irishjohn, forget you ever heard the term " counter steering" and go have fun on your bike.

ps: what if I said you steer a dirt bike with the rear end, how many minds would I blow

WFO#1 screwed with this post 01-05-2013 at 08:56 AM
WFO#1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2013, 08:27 AM   #118
Boon Booni
Red Clay Halo
 
Boon Booni's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Richmond, Va
Oddometer: 12,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by WFO#1 View Post

ps: what if said you steer a dirt bike with the rear end, how many minds would I blow

How do you control which way the rear moves?
__________________
A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men.

You can be Han Solo, and I can be another Han Solo...
Boon Booni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2013, 08:36 AM   #119
Racer111v
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Racer111v's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Location: Hudson, NH
Oddometer: 346
[QUOTE=WFO#1;20401573

ps: what if said you steer a dirt bike with the rear end, how many minds would I blow[/QUOTE]


Or if you want to see a true "rear steer" bike created with our tax dollars, just Google "Joan Claybrook backward bike"
Racer111v is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2013, 08:46 AM   #120
farmerstu
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2011
Location: Minnesota west central
Oddometer: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post
Another way to understand counter steering on a motorcycle:

Lion

edit: of course, at very very low speeds you will turn the wheel into the turn, like when you are moving the bike in the garage, or when making a tight u-turn. There is a speed though, perhaps 5mph or a little more, where the counter steering principle "starts".
don't you people read the theads you post in?
can't believe i'm gettting sucked ito this again. a good demo is to take a piece of rope around the bar ends and try steering with them.(can't push ,only pull) it will quickly become apparent.
i compare a good mc. rider to a good horse rider. i.e. i can ride a horse,i know the mechanics of how to ride, however i have no confidence that the horse is going to do what i want it to do. when i ride a mc. i know,just like a good horseback rider knows the horse, that the bike is going to do what i want it to do. riding horse is unsafe for me, if you can't make your mc. do what you want it to do under any conditions mc.riding is unsafe for you.
farmerstu is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 02:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014