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Old 01-10-2013, 11:21 AM   #121
GoUglyEarly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josephvman View Post
Maybe motorcycling is inconsistent with youth culture today? We've got an entire generation that has been coddled into believing that they're something special. They have hundreds of "friends" on Facebook, and for the few that actually stepped away from the computer or Playstation and played sports, there were no winners or losers and everyone got a trophy. Motorcycling requires personal responsibility; to check and maintain your machine, to be aware of what's going on around you, and to understand the limits of your ability. In a nutshell, we're raising a generation of pussies, and motorcycles aren't for pussies! If I had a kid, I'd name him Sue!
Last I checked the youth of America has been fighting overseas for over ten years straight. Unlike older generations they didn't need to be drafted; they all volunteered.

Be careful before you start condemning groups you don't belong to. I have a buddy named Zsu who both rides and cracks skulls in his day job as an MP

American culture is increasingly urbanized and media based so I get where these views of 'softness' come from, but there are plenty of kids who still ride.....it only takes a glance at all the Red Bull and Monster ads and sponsorships to know there is still money to be made in motorcycling.

Its the economy causing new bike sales to drop, bottom line. You can point out as many success stories as you please (just like the casinos like to do); the fact is that our earning power continues to decline against the Consumer Price Index and that is going to have an effect on 'luxury' item purchasing, especially in demographics that are not yet financially established (which takes longer to accomplish than it used to).

See for yourself: http://econographics.files.wordpress...-dollar-vs.jpg
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:26 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by GoUglyEarly View Post
Last I checked the youth of America has been fighting overseas for over ten years straight. Unlike older generations they didn't need to be drafted; they all volunteered.

Be careful before you start condemning groups you don't belong to. I have a buddy named Zsu who both rides and cracks skulls in his day job as an MP

American culture is increasingly urbanized and media based so I get where these views of 'softness' come from, but there are plenty of kids who still ride.....it only takes a glance at all the Red Bull and Monster ads and sponsorships to know there is still money to be made in motorcycling.

Its the economy causing new bike sales to drop, bottom line. You can point out as many success stories as you please (just like the casinos like to do); the fact is that our earning power continues to decline against the Consumer Price Index and that is going to have an effect on 'luxury' item purchasing, especially in demographics that are not yet financially established (which takes longer to accomplish than it used to).

See for yourself: http://econographics.files.wordpress...-dollar-vs.jpg
This, this, this. I forgot to add the shitty economy and a 10 year long war to my post. Well done.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:33 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Thanantos View Post
The humor of old guy rants is inversely proportional to their basis in knowledge and reason. This thread is hard, empirical evidence of that.

I've been laughing my ass off reading it.
I agree. I have nothing to add about motorcycles or the industry, but it's always funny to read and hear Baby Boomers rant about how selfish, disrespectful, and entitled subsequent generations have become. Can they see the thick irony?
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:37 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by GoUglyEarly View Post
Last I checked the youth of America has been fighting overseas for over ten years straight. Unlike older generations they didn't need to be drafted; they all volunteered.

Be careful before you start condemning groups you don't belong to. I have a buddy named Zsu who both rides and cracks skulls in his day job as an MP

American culture is increasingly urbanized and media based so I get where these views of 'softness' come from, but there are plenty of kids who still ride.....it only takes a glance at all the Red Bull and Monster ads and sponsorships to know there is still money to be made in motorcycling.

Its the economy causing new bike sales to drop, bottom line. You can point out as many success stories as you please (just like the casinos like to do); the fact is that our earning power continues to decline against the Consumer Price Index and that is going to have an effect on 'luxury' item purchasing, especially in demographics that are not yet financially established (which takes longer to accomplish than it used to).

See for yourself: http://econographics.files.wordpress...-dollar-vs.jpg


Great post.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:40 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by El Pescador View Post
it's always funny to read and hear Baby Boomers rant about how selfish, disrespectful, and entitled subsequent generations have become. Can they see the thick irony?
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:43 AM   #126
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I don't consider young people in the military to be representative of the general youth culture today. Military culture is it's own culture, and those who served are much more likely to be able to cope with life than the majority of the general population. I think a year of mandatory military training or public service would be a good thing.


This probably belongs is JM, but:the only reason we've been involved in these decade-long conflicts is because there's no draft and they're all volunteers. If presidents, senators, and congressmen had to answer to the parents of drafted soldiers killed in action in these "wars" you'd see riots and marching in the street. If it was a volunteer military during the Vietnam era we'd probably still be there. I support the soldiers, but I don't understand the mission anymore, or what it's supposed to mean to win the war. What would winning the war look like?
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:49 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by GoUglyEarly View Post
Its the economy causing new bike sales to drop, bottom line.
And yet, HD who the OP singles out and who sells what are considered some of the most expensive bikes, sold more bikes in 2012 than in 2011 and more in 2011 than in 2010.....with a rising percentage of "first time HD buyers" in the less than 40 age group.

Not all mfgs are doomed.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:55 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by blk-betty View Post
And yet, HD who the OP singles out and who sells what are considered some of the most expensive bikes, sold more bikes in 2012 than in 2011 and more in 2011 than in 2010.....with a rising percentage of "first time HD buyers" in the less than 40 age group.

Not all mfgs are doomed.
I'm going to eat some crow here.

I have argued the HD point with both you and DAKEZ before (a few years ago), and shortly after I started seeing a LOT of young people on Sportsters. In fact, most of the young people I see on bikes in the last two years are either on used sport bikes or new Sportys.

I also did the modern dollars to 1978 Superglide and the 2013 Superglide Custom is actually marginally cheaper than the '78.

Go figure.
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:27 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by blk-betty View Post
And yet, HD who the OP singles out and who sells what are considered some of the most expensive bikes, sold more bikes in 2012 than in 2011 and more in 2011 than in 2010.....with a rising percentage of "first time HD buyers" in the less than 40 age group.

Not all mfgs are doomed.
I don't have a fight to pick with H-D but I think we can all agree that their target demographic is the "mid-life crisis" and up group. That isn't an insult, by the way. The older I get the more I can (gasp) see myself getting a cheap XL to ride around with my married friends. Would never be my first bike, or even my second....but third....maybe.

I'd be willing to bet that the group you mention is shaded far more towards 40!

The keynote here is that as I get older I can better afford these toys. H-D mgmt is smart enough to know where the money is and they have to compete quarter to quarter like every other company. So they join in the great American fountain of youth project.

Remember when kids drove the old muscle cars? It is those same 'kids' buying the new ones, as middle aged adults.

The manufacturers are simply cashing in on the nostalgia and wallets of the only group left who can consistently afford more than they need.

IF the manufacturers do not seed new-style, affordable products to the up and coming generations they will eventually have a reckoning when business as usual marketing no longer makes any sense, and H-D could end up the big loser when the demographics no longer support their single-minded strategy. It won't happen any time soon, but it looms large as the boomers retire and more new riders discover touring and adventure bikes as an alternative to cruisers.

Everyone other than H-D is tripping over themselves to capture the <10/10ths market and the surge of ADV is proof of it.
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:34 PM   #130
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Oh great... you watched your stepkid having REAL problems over years, clearly needing professional treatment, didn't manage to help him get out of the shit and your "solution" was to put him on the street where he should do what... drink more and fade to death? And now you rant about it on forums? Really great.

At 14, he started coming home stoned. I noticed it immediately. But it fell on deaf ears, both my wife and the stepkid. I told them, he would soon drop out of school, and wouldn't be able to hold a job. But no, I was wrong! (I came from this back ground, I can spot drug use or alcohol abuse from a mile away). I did what I could to motivate/encourage/threaten/cajole him/them into moving forward with his life. Dropped out of school, somehow got a continuation school diploma without ever going. Seriously, only went once or twice. I saw it all. I tried to intervene. I was rebuffed at every turn. Got him jobs with people. Gee, come to work stoned, or drunk or not show up at all. Or don't show up for a week, and then come and snivel for a check. Rehab? AA? Well, AA is bullshit. Rehab won't work if it is forced on you. After 7 years of this bullshit, I was tired of paying the bills, and my wife started seeing that he didn't do shit. For weeks and weeks on end, internet all day and all night, or out getting stoned/drunk with his friends.

Almost forgot. His fathers company, Alcoa Aluminum, paid for college. Sign up, get the paperwork, get a check every semester. Except they don't require any results. You just have to sign up. He never even went to class, just kept signing up until the local community college wouldn't accept his applications anymore, since he never went, much less finishing a class. A situation many would kill for. Even the illegal aliens try harder than this.

Last December, we gave him 1 month to either get into school, or get a job. About 2 days before the end of that 30 days, I bought him a bus ticket wherever he wanted to go. His father sent him some money. He moved to San Francisco. He's actually working at Ghirardelis, selling chocolate. He's got a room. He's got his bus pass. He gets drunk all the time. But it isn't on my dime any more.

And Wraith, you don't know shit. You can't force sobriety or being clean from dope (whether it's marijuana or anything else) on anyone that isn't willing.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:15 PM   #131
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Oh I can vividly imagine how it sounded when you told them he will fuck up all his life when he was fucking 14 years old.

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Originally Posted by corndog67 View Post
I did what I could to motivate/encourage/threaten/cajole him/them into moving forward with his life.
Ever tried asking him about his problems and fears? Taking him serious? Showing him he's loved and that you always will stand behind him (oh wait...) even if he's only your stepson? Going to a psychotherapist together, as a family, trying to find out what could actually help him as a human being instead of what could release you from paying his bills?

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Last December, we gave him 1 month to either get into school, or get a job.
Great again... 7 years of not doing a step forward but then he has to fix everything by himself in one month. You didn't want him to get into school or a job, you only wanted to get rid of him. Oh yeah he didn't want to be helped and so there was nothing you could have done... right... happy you, how simple.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:19 PM   #132
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mostly tires

also remember to compare apples to apples, don't compare professional maintenance costs for a cage to DIY costs on a bike, AND compare what the recommended intervals are.

bike $425 for 2 tires (mounted & balanced) lasts 10k = 4.25¢/mile
car $350 for 4 tires (again mounted balanced) lasts 80k = 0.44¢/mile

bike spend almost 10 times as much on tires

also routine maintenance, cars go 100,000 miles between tuneups, bikes go only 7,500 (going by recommended interval in manual)

milage

bike @ 50mpg = 7¢/mile car @ 38mpg - 9.2¢/mile

cost of ownership similar

bike new $8k, value with 100k miles $500 - 7.5¢/mile
car new $15k, value with 100k miles $7,500 - 7.5¢/mile

chain & sprockets is something that cars don't have, but some cars do require changing a timing belt at 60k or 75k

I use my V-strom and in the past my SV650 for business use and have detailed accounting for tax purpose, My V-strom cost per mile is 45¢± compared to 36¢ for a Ford Ranger and 52¢ for a Chevy van, cheapest car I ever owned was a BMW 320i that only cost my 26¢/mile, My SV was 35¢/mile (over 135k miles)
Very nice breakdown

It does seem that over the long term that it is cheaper to own a car.
Initially the bike is cheaper but the car catches up. I wonder what the Break even point is?
Either way bikes are still way more fun. I think everyone can agree to that
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:26 PM   #133
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Oh I can vividly imagine how it sounded when you told them he will fuck up all his life when he was fucking 14 years old.



Ever tried asking him about his problems and fears? Taking him serious? Showing him he's loved and that you always will stand behind him (oh wait...) even if he's only your stepson? Going to a psychotherapist together, as a family, trying to find out what could actually help him as a human being instead of what could release you from paying his bills?



Great again... 7 years of not doing a step forward but then he has to fix everything by himself in one month. You didn't want him to get into school or a job, you only wanted to get rid of him. Oh yeah he didn't want to be helped and so there was nothing you could have done... right... happy you, how simple.
As I said,;you don't know shit. If someone isn't willing to help themselves , you can't force it on them.

Its funny how you have the answers when it isn't you dealing with it. He's doing better now. That he pays his own way. . I guess you'd keep paying for his shit until he's 50. Not me.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:34 PM   #134
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Very nice breakdown

It does seem that over the long term that it is cheaper to own a car.
Initially the bike is cheaper but the car catches up. I wonder what the Break even point is?
Either way bikes are still way more fun. I think everyone can agree to that
Waaay more fun! also, for me, also more comfortable, in most cages, 15-20 minutes and my sciatica is acting up, I can ride all day and then some and still be comfortable on a bike, as big as I am, my little nekid SV650 is more comfortable for me than my V-strom.

for giggles, I just researched value comparison of a Toyota Prius, in 2010 you could get one new for as little as $22k today with 100k miles that same car is still worth $18k and it gets 50+ mpg, but I'm not sure what hybrids require for special maintenance

my V-strom is my primary vehicle, my van, I rarely drive, but employees do daily, right now, my Ranger is my secondary vehicle, it gets more use in winter. Depends how far I gotta go, if its a 100 miles, I take the bike, if its to the post office 2 miles away, I take the Ranger. If it take me longer to get geared up than the ride, I take the cage. Come late March, the Ranger will be "summerized" with a battery tender and stabilizer in the gas, It won't get used till November unless its needed as a truck

I would like to see the <400cc street bikes more available in the US. Most scooters are dangerous imho, they may be a viable option in more urban locations on surface streets.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:51 PM   #135
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i with you on sumerizing.
last year i ride 26k on my bike and drove 6k in my ranger.
and some of the 6k was my wife going to the feed store for the horse.
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