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Old 01-28-2013, 05:57 PM   #136
NJ-Brett
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All bets are off with anything German with electronics in it.
Bad choices in the below example, bikes do not have mass air sensors, and the aux air system can not impact the bike at all, you can remove it, plug it up, the bike runs the same.


Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
totally agree ... have never made the statement that points/condenser are more reliable than ALL electronic ignitions. just for BMW airheads, which for some reason have a higher failure rate than most other electronic ignitions.

fuel injection is an entirely different matter. due to added complexity by all the sensors, brain box, high pressure pump, injectors, mass air sensor, aux air valve, etc, etc, etc. when things are humming and is well ... a well designed fuel injection system stays in the background doing it's job. all but invisible. if/when it fails... it's a guarantee nightmare!

again .. putting in context of what an adventure bike gets put through. my reasoning says R80G/S is the best tool for me....

LOTS of folks think otherwise, so they are riding new high tech marvels... hey what ever works...
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:24 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ-Brett View Post
All bets are off with anything German with electronics in it.
Bad choices in the below example, bikes do not have mass air sensors, and the aux air system can not impact the bike at all, you can remove it, plug it up, the bike runs the same.
oopss... please excuse my use of older terminology, you can tell I've worked on fuel injection since the very beginning .. aux air valve lets more air in when engine is cold to raise rpm. performs function as fast idle cam that opens up butterfly slightly allowing more air in when choke is on. also called a fast idle solenoid. valve closes after engine is warm either via timer or temperature sensor depending on system.

a mass air sensor determines air flow, so ECU can regulation fuel accordingly. a MAP or manifold absolute pressure sensor which determines air flow allowing ECU to regulate fuel. two different ways to measure air flow allowing ECU to regulate fuel accordingly.

one of the world's first fuel injected bikes was 1980 Kawasaki KZ1000G which used a mass air sensor.

_cy_ screwed with this post 01-28-2013 at 06:55 PM
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:43 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
totally agree ... have never made the statement that points/condenser are more reliable than ALL electronic ignitions. just for BMW airheads, which for some reason have a higher failure rate than most other electronic ignitions.
That's not the way I remember it - You discussed your airhead but your statements were pretty general.

As I understand it, early BMW electronic ignition units were prone to failure due to overheating when the conductive paste attaching them to their heatsink dried up. It's an easy thing to prevent and later models didn't have the problem. New ignition units are also small, light and easy to carry. The biggest thing I'm concerned about failing on my 85 R80RT is the MECHANICAL advance/retard in the beancan. I could easily carry a spare which would be no harder to replace or repair than the points system. If I was really concerned about it (which I'm not), I'd opt for the aftermarket, crank-mounted ignition and keep the bean-can as backup.
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:56 PM   #139
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Another thread on EFI. wow, just wow. Since 1983, I have not owned any vehicle with carbs (except my little klx250sf in storage in Florida). 1983 pontiac sunbird, 200,000 miles, no efi issues. 1987 gmc safari minivan, 205,000, no efi issues, 1993, mercury tracer, 187,000 miles, no efi issues, 1997 Jeep cherokee, 193,000 miles, noe efi issues, 2001 Jeep cherokee, currently 165,000 miles no efi issues. Now with bikes, 2009 bmw (yes a beemer) g650gs, 32,000 miles, no efi issues. 2007 Suzuki C50 Boulevard, 57,000 miles no efi issues. So close to 1,000,000 miles in the past 30 years, and 0 EFI issues. Many of these vehicles, miles were on very dusty, gravel roads which I lived on.
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:13 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slartidbartfast View Post
That's not the way I remember it - You discussed your airhead but your statements were pretty general.

As I understand it, early BMW electronic ignition units were prone to failure due to overheating when the conductive paste attaching them to their heatsink dried up. It's an easy thing to prevent and later models didn't have the problem. New ignition units are also small, light and easy to carry. The biggest thing I'm concerned about failing on my 85 R80RT is the MECHANICAL advance/retard in the beancan. I could easily carry a spare which would be no harder to replace or repair than the points system. If I was really concerned about it (which I'm not), I'd opt for the aftermarket, crank-mounted ignition and keep the bean-can as backup.
oppsss... sorry if I didn't clarify earlier... link to a thread started on this very topic in my sig...this topic has been covered ad nauseam.

airhead bean can with halls sensor are prone to failure either due to heat and/or age. replacing halls sensor without proper tools is all but impossible.

strangely enough aftermarket ignition systems for airheads also has a high instance of halls failure. on top of spending $$$. switching to beancan with points eliminates that failure mode. points/condenser properly setup can go 20k-30k+ miles between service.

rarely do ignition advances actually fail on beancans. simple to service by giving a squirt of lube via access port.

12v Bosch coils are famous for failing, so that was yanked and a new high performance coil was installed along with beancan w/ points. ignition advance was serviced also.

in short any known weak points on R80G/S has been addressed. easier/cheaper to fix it ahead of time, instead of middle of no-where.
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:17 PM   #141
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If it were me, and I was wanting to travel rtw with a bike that was stone nutz reliable, and could be repaired (to include a parts supply) in just about any town, village, or tribal community on the planet, I'd probably choose a Honda 125cc scooter, of any year. However, a Japanese 250cc dual sport would probably provide a bit more power and comfort. Anything bigger than that might be uncommon in most non 1st world countries (i.e. not many mechanics, even fewer parts supply).

If I wanted to ride a bike other than that, I'd probably set it up to my own personal taste, and carry what I thought I needed, and not look back. If it doesn't break down, great. If it does, then it's part of the adventure.

As to efi or carb? I'd prefer efi. To me, it IS less complicated, more robust, more forgiving, and easier to troubleshoot/repair. YMMV.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:03 PM   #142
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I guess I am the odd man out, as I see advantages and disadvantages to both systems.

My biggest concern about EFI is more a question of long term maintainability. My personal experiences with all types of vehicles and equipment is electrical systems are the most vulnerable to the ravages of time and harsh environments. The second most vulnerable system is the fuel system, EFI is combining the 2 most vulnerable systems into one.

No, I don't think it is a legitimate reason reason to disregard EFI or consider it inferior like some do, but it would be foolish and disingenuous to ignore that fact like others are doing.
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:55 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windmill View Post
I guess I am the odd man out, as I see advantages and disadvantages to both systems.

My biggest concern about EFI is more a question of long term maintainability. My personal experiences with all types of vehicles and equipment is electrical systems are the most vulnerable to the ravages of time and harsh environments. The second most vulnerable system is the fuel system, EFI is combining the 2 most vulnerable systems into one.

No, I don't think it is a legitimate reason reason to disregard EFI or consider it inferior like some do, but it would be foolish and disingenuous to ignore that fact like others are doing.
What facts are being ignored? You are trying to compare electronics from several decades ago to those of today. There simply is no comparison. Old pin-through-hole boards with lots of individual components poorly wave soldered to a board then poorly sealed in outdated materials really tells us NOTHING about how modern surface mount component-on-chip fully weather sealed electronics will perform. Then there are the ongoing improvements in reliability engineering and testing methods. And years of past performance data that manufacturers analyze with an eye to reducing failure modes and effects...

Electronics and electronic manufacturing advances at a staggering rate. Assuming what modern systems will do based upon what older versions have done is a bit like trying to understand modern airliners' reliability and capability by studying the de Havilland Comet and the 707.
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:15 AM   #144
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What's really needed is an industry standard uniform diagnostic port similar to the OBD2 that's mandated on all cars and trucks sold in the USA. This would make owner maintenance possible without having to rely on a dealer. Modern Marelli systems are OBD2 compatible now, and there are cables and PC programs available to utilize this.
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:46 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttpete View Post
What's really needed is an industry standard uniform diagnostic port similar to the OBD2 that's mandated on all cars and trucks sold in the USA. This would make owner maintenance possible without having to rely on a dealer. Modern Marelli systems are OBD2 compatible now, and there are cables and PC programs available to utilize this.
For BMW there is the GS911. It is better than most OBDII system readers.

Jim
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:05 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
For BMW there is the GS911. It is better than most OBDII system readers.

Jim
Can it be accessed by the owner or only by the dealer?
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:10 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paebr332 View Post
What facts are being ignored?

I'm still waiting for you tell me how FI is more reliable than a simple carbureter.
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:18 AM   #148
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True, while costing MUCH less.
But at some point, things will crap out, and no longer be made, so if one thinks about 50 years from now, maybe few of todays bikes will be running.
Nor will anything with a cdi that can not be retrofit with something else.

You might still be able to get points, or make them, coils, spark plugs also, but a bad carb part, maybe not.
There are some old Japanese bikes that had weak cdi systems that are a problem, yet old American bikes from the 30's are still in use.
But who cares about 50 years from now, nothing today is made to be fixed 50 years from now.

There is a wide range of reliability needed, depending on if you are going RTW or out for a week of off the map dirt riding, or a day ride through a swamp.

There are actually very few parts that can kill an EFI bike, coil (same as any other bike), timing pickup (same as any bike) or fuel pump.
The air injection can crap out, no big deal.
The intake air temp sensor and manifold pressure sensor can go and the bike will run ok.
The throttle position sensor can go bad and the bike will still run.
The engine temp sensor can fail and the bike will still run ok.
The oxy sensor can fail, and the bike might run better.
Most FI bikes have no idle speed control.

The ecu itself could fail, its VERY rare, but they are small and easy to carry a spare.
You could cary spares of the entire system in the same space as a spare carb takes up.
Short a connector and the system will tell you which sensor went bad, replace it and you are on your way.

Want to plan for the future, get a salvage bike.
I did, for $1000.00 I got an entire low mile bike with fork damage, so I have a spare motor, wheels, FI system, etc.
Before starting out on a really long trip, I would not bring anything.
I would start out with new tires, front brakes, chain and sprockets, clutch cable, and I would expect to be able to go 30,000 miles with oil changes, valve checks and tire replacment.
Front brake pads might be a good idea at 20,000 miles though.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Paebr332 View Post
What facts are being ignored? You are trying to compare electronics from several decades ago to those of today. There simply is no comparison. Old pin-through-hole boards with lots of individual components poorly wave soldered to a board then poorly sealed in outdated materials really tells us NOTHING about how modern surface mount component-on-chip fully weather sealed electronics will perform. Then there are the ongoing improvements in reliability engineering and testing methods. And years of past performance data that manufacturers analyze with an eye to reducing failure modes and effects...

Electronics and electronic manufacturing advances at a staggering rate. Assuming what modern systems will do based upon what older versions have done is a bit like trying to understand modern airliners' reliability and capability by studying the de Havilland Comet and the 707.
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:38 AM   #149
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I'm still waiting for you tell me how FI is more reliable than a simple carbureter.
You really, really cannot be that thick. There is a reason that 100% (not 99.999%) of the 14.5 million cars and trucks sold in America last year came with EFI. Carbed vehicles can pass emissions, but they are less fuel efficient, less flexible and less reliable. All the manufacturers came to this realization long ago.

You have never seen a system reliability study have you? My brother was an engineer for Walbro during the transition from carbs to fuel injection by the auto industry. He was involved in the testing of new systems and the fuel injection systems had much lower overall failure rates than did the "simple" carb systems. And that was 20 years ago.

The funny thing is you keep referring to fuel injection problems with trucks as though this tells us something useful. Since there has not been a single carbed truck sold in the US in a decade the odds are all but 100% of the vehicles you come across on a regular basis will be fuel injected. So almost 100% of the fuel system problems will be with fuel injection systems. The reason you see only injection system failures is because injection systems are so much better they have completely supplanted carburetors in the entire car and truck market and will do so in the bike market in less than a decade.

You sound like King Canute ordering back the tide of EFI. Good luck with that.
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:46 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Paebr332 View Post
You really, really cannot be that thick. There is a reason that 100% (not 99.999%) of the 14.5 million cars and trucks sold in America last year came with EFI. Carbed vehicles can pass emissions, but they are less fuel efficient, less flexible and less reliable. All the manufacturers came to this realization long ago.

You have never seen a system reliability study have you? My brother was an engineer for Walbro during the transition from carbs to fuel injection by the auto industry. He was involved in the testing of new systems and the fuel injection systems had much lower overall failure rates than did the "simple" carb systems. And that was 20 years ago.

The funny thing is you keep referring to fuel injection problems with trucks as though this tells us something useful. Since there has not been a single carbed truck sold in the US in a decade the odds are all but 100% of the vehicle you come across on a regular basis will be fuel injected. So almost 100% of the fuel system problems will be with fuel injection systems. The reason you see only injection system failures is because injection systems are so much better they have completely supplanted carburetors in the entire car and truck market and will do so in the bike market in less than a decade.

You sound like King Canute ordering back the tide of EFI. Good luck with that.

Me thick?

We're talking about motorcycles here, they are still sold with carburetors, try to keep up.

You have told others in this thread that we cannot look at old EFI systems for comparison, yet you just told me to do just that? You are so in your head that you can't see the real world.

I made one reference, one only and you say that I "keep referring"...I have not and will not and did not. You are an ass, plain and simple.

Again, motorcycle EFI systems are NOT reliable, data obtained by myself in the middle of nowhere.
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