The issues of fuel injectors and "adventure" bikes

[Paebr332]

Originally Posted by larryboy

Me thick?

We're talking about motorcycles here, they are still sold with carburetors, try to keep up.

You have told others in this thread that we cannot look at old EFI systems for comparison, yet you just told me to do just that? You are so in your head that you can't see the real world.

I made one reference, one only and you say that I "keep referring"...I have not and will not and did not. You are an ass, plain and simple.

Again, motorcycle EFI systems are NOT reliable, data obtained by myself in the middle of nowhere.

Your example, statistically speaking, contains zero degress of freedom. In other words, it is useless for analysis of anything. It is, however, a great example of confirmation bias in action. That or Dunning-Kruger strikes again.

"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." John Kenneth Galbraith

[windmill]

This thread sure proves that techno geeks suffer from the same denial of reality that the luddites do.

Looking back through rose colored glasses, looking foward with blind optimism. Opposite sides of the same coin.

[John Smallberries]

Originally Posted by windmill

This thread sure proves that techno geeks suffer from the same denial of reality that the luddites do.

Looking back through rose colored glasses, looking foward with blind optimism. Opposite sides of the same coin.

It is not blind optimism - just reality. Every year, there will be fewer carb bikes and more EFi. Manufacturers must make them cheaper and more reliable. There is no fundamental reason for EFI to be less reliable than a carb. It is all a matter of execution. Older FI systems could be expensive and unreliable. Newer systems are better.

The OP question will be irrelevant soon as ALL new adventure bikes will have FI - just a matter of time.

[JimVonBaden]

Originally Posted by ttpete

Can it be accessed by the owner or only by the dealer?

The owner. It is a pretty cool tool!

http://www.gs911usa.com/

Jim

[Lion BR]

If carburators are so good, why aren't more bikes and cars carburated? Is it only emissions or because those things are actually crap?

I don't know, I remember an old aircooled VW I had, carburated. Every once in a while it needed a tune up, like in at least twice a year. But the best one was an Alfa Romeo Berlina where I junked the Spica fuel injection system (the car was a 1969 mind you - and I'm not that old, the car was. the point is fuel injection has been around) and put two side draft delhortos. That thing, the air intakes, sounded great.

Ok, there was some fun in being able to use my own mechanic (analog stuff) and seat of the pants feel to adjust those things. But it only really worked well when pros worked on them. Overall, I'm so much happier with fuel injection. Never need to mess with the system. Ok, if they fail, they do. But for the vast majority of the time, nada goes wrong.

Actually I never had a single problem with fuel injection on any of my vehicles. Knock on wood. Well, except for that VW Porsche (Porsche 924) with that Audi 2 Liter motor and a Bosch K-jetronic fuel injection system that no one could make run right. But that is a whole nother story.

But please, continue the pleasantries exchange, it is not my intent to stop the bickering. It is always fun to see these arguments when some people think their opinions value more than some other people's opinions.

Lion

[John Smallberries]

For what it is worth, I checked out which dual-sport bikes can be bought new today with FI or carb. Here is the list.
Carburetors:
Honda CRF450X, XR650L, CRF250X
Kawasaki KLR and KLX
Suzuki DRs 400 & 650
Yamaha TW200 (my little buddy)

Fuel injection:
All KTMs
All BMWs
All Husqvarnas
Honda XL700ATransAlp, CRF250L
Suzuki VStrom 650 & 1000
Yamaha Super Tenere, WR250R, XT250

One list will get longer, one will not.

[VxZeroKnots]

Originally Posted by John Smallberries

For what it is worth, I checked out which dual-sport bikes can be bought new today with FI or carb. Here is the list.
Carburetors:
Honda CRF450X, XR650L, CRF250X
Kawasaki KLR and KLX
Suzuki DRs 400 & 650
Yamaha TW200 (my little buddy)

Fuel injection:
All KTMs
All BMWs
All Husqvarnas
Honda XL700ATransAlp, CRF250L
Suzuki VStrom 650 & 1000
Yamaha Super Tenere, WR250R, XT250, WR450F

One list will get longer, one will not.

If you're going to include te 450X it's only fair.

[slartidbartfast]

Originally Posted by Lion BR

...
Actually I never had a single problem with fuel injection on any of my vehicles. Knock on wood. Well, except for that VW Porsche (Porsche 924) with that Audi 2 Liter motor and a Bosch K-jetronic fuel injection system that no one could make run right. But that is a whole nother story...

I had a 1980 Scirocco with a Bosch mechanical fuel injection system (was that the Jetronic?) It was my first fuel-injected car and I recall it was pretty powerful (for a 1.6 litre engine of that era,) always started easily, and ran smootly under all conditions. Not needing to have mastery of an idiosynchratic choke and throttle-pumping ritual needed to get my previous old British cars going on a cold morning was an epiphany.

I recall the SUs on many old British cars being fairly low maintenance (apart from constantly topping up the dashpots with oil) and effective. The absolute worst were the twin Strombergs on my old US-spec TR-6. The UK model with Lucas mechanical injection had a full 50% more horsepower and vastly superior running.

[jasonmt]

Yep, FI on bikes sucks so bad that Honda added it to their 2013 CRF 450 Rally bike in place of the stock Keihin 40mm flat-slide carburetor.

I try my best to not buy things like bikes, sleds and quads etc. with carbs any more as I have had way more issues with past carbed bikes, sleds and quads etc. than I have with the FI bikes, sleds and quads I now own.

Then again my thumpers EFI systems are a lot simpler than this:

[NJ-Brett]

That is about as simple as it gets...

Originally Posted by jasonmt

Yep, FI on bikes sucks so bad that Honda added it to their 2013 CRF 450 Rally bike in place of the stock Keihin 40mm flat-slide carburetor.

I try my best to not buy things like bikes, sleds and quads etc. with carbs any more as I have had way more issues with past carbed bikes, sleds and quads etc. than I have with the FI bikes, sleds and quads I now own.

Then again my thumpers EFI systems are a lot simpler than this:

[H96669]

Is it just me but riding and wrenching since before most here got off their diapers, never really had much problems with any of them crappy carbs or crappy EFIs. I still prefer the later....so much better in cold climates.

Looking for a big thumper right now, don't really give a shit if carbed or EFI, will just get the right spare parts if I feel they may be needed,pack up my tools and go on my merry way.

[fallingoff]

Originally Posted by Lion BR

If carburators are so good, why aren't more bikes and cars carburated? Is it only emissions or because those things are actually crap?

I don't know, I remember an old aircooled VW I had, carburated. Every once in a while it needed a tune up, like in at least twice a year. But the best one was an Alfa Romeo Berlina where I junked the Spica fuel injection system (the car was a 1969 mind you - and I'm not that old, the car was. the point is fuel injection has been around) and put two side draft delhortos. That thing, the air intakes, sounded great.

Ok, there was some fun in being able to use my own mechanic (analog stuff) and seat of the pants feel to adjust those things. But it only really worked well when pros worked on them. Overall, I'm so much happier with fuel injection. Never need to mess with the system. Ok, if they fail, they do. But for the vast majority of the time, nada goes wrong.

Actually I never had a single problem with fuel injection on any of my vehicles. Knock on wood. Well, except for that VW Porsche (Porsche 924) with that Audi 2 Liter motor and a Bosch K-jetronic fuel injection system that no one could make run right. But that is a whole nother story.

But please, continue the pleasantries exchange, it is not my intent to stop the bickering. It is always fun to see these arguments when some people think their opinions value more than some other people's opinions.

Lion

my 81 928s ran perfectly
no problems
with fuel injection
just the thirst

ok lets discuss german fuel injection. lol

[corndog67]

Originally Posted by John Smallberries

In Sept 2011 I did the "Intro to Adventure" and "Base Camp Alpha" excursions with RawHyde Adventures in Castaic, CA (fantastic!). Riding buddy, Dave, ended up in this slot in the Jawbone area:

In the drop, he broke off the electrical connector to the LH fuel injector:

Leaving him with a "600GS". Our RawHyde leader was able to limp the bike out, but he was done for the trip.

The moral of the story to me wasn't "shoulda had a carb", but "shoulda bought a Touratech fuel injector protector"

I think the moral to the story was, don't ride a street bike in the dirt, thinking it's a dirt bike. If that was a 450 or 300 KTM, you could have just blasted through or over that. Those aren't dirt bikes, guys.

[PSYCHO II]

Computers run our lives and make things so much easier. But when computers fail, which is not that often, it all comes to a stop. Technology improves our ease of doing things and I wouldn't go back. To be stuck in the middle of nowhere because "computer says no" is just the result of our reliance of technology. There is more good than bad that comes with technology. Build a bridge and get over it.

[SteelJM1]

Originally Posted by John Smallberries

For what it is worth, I checked out which dual-sport bikes can be bought new today with FI or carb. Here is the list.
Carburetors:
Honda CRF450X, XR650L, CRF250X
Kawasaki KLR and KLX
Suzuki DRs 400 & 650
Yamaha TW200 (my little buddy)

Fuel injection:
All KTMs
All BMWs
All Husqvarnas
Honda XL700ATransAlp, CRF250L
Suzuki VStrom 650 & 1000
Yamaha Super Tenere, WR250R, XT250

One list will get longer, one will not.

Wroooong. My TE300 is very much carbed. Im looking forward to the day that KTM adopts direct injected 2-strokes...and hope they license the technology from polaris who's proven it... and hope they have a retrofit kit for the carbed ones. It's brand new and already I'm tired of fiddling with the goddamn jets and needles to get it to run great, which i'll just have to fiddle with again once it gets warmer. Or I go up in elevation. Or the humidity rises. And it won't drink expensive gas like it's going out of style.