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Old 01-28-2013, 06:47 AM   #106
Foot dragger
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Originally Posted by Tepi View Post
You can crack a carb wide open in a crash.... try fixing that on the side of the road.
Yeah,that is happening all the time. If you can break a carb body,you can break a throttle body,both in the same place.
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:04 AM   #107
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The real question is which kind of oil works better in Carburetor bikes as opposed to EFI






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Old 01-28-2013, 07:43 AM   #108
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Luddite huh

simply count the number of components below. which for fuel injection are necessary to duplicate different functions of a plain ole carburetor.

each adds an additional point of failure. ALL mechanical parts will fail at some point.


Therein lies your problem. You cannot simply count the number of components and draw any conclusion UNTIL you know the failure rates of the individual components. You also need to understand their failure characteristics. For example, with solid state electronics once you get past the infant mortality failure phase (typically a few dozen hours of operation) they have infinitesimally small random normal failure rates and they take a long, long time to reach the end-of-life mortality phase. Mechanical components feature much, much higher random mid-life failure rates and they reach the end-of-life failure phase much, much earlier than do electronics. Because they are subject to physical wear they simply wear out. They are also much more prone to vibration-induced spontaneous adjustment. That's fancy-talk for mechanical stuff (like springs, screws and bolts) working loose.

Back to my original example. If we just counted components and applied an average mechanical by-component failure rate, as you believe is sufficient, then your computer with its tens of thousands of individual components (let's not even get into the number of individual semiconductors etched onto the CPU) could never work. Ever.

If we just ASSUME equal component failure rates when comparing electronics to mechanical systems the electronic systems would NEVER work. This is the fundamental root of your error. You do not understand the very basics of reliability engineering, nor the failure rates of modern electronics components. Not one bit.
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:55 AM   #109
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I've had the same ignition module in my '77 Pontiac T/A (has GM HEI) for so many years I couldn't even tell you when it was put in...

It still has a Quadrajet on it that requires constant messing with depending on how it "feels" that day.

I have both FI and carb'd bikes...FI is the future, but my carb'd bikes are here to stay.
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:16 AM   #110
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Not to mention, even most carb'd bikes have ECU's these days, so by having a carb you aren't eliminating that "scary" wiring diagram, you're just making it smaller.

Uhm, you know what it's for? No? It's a tps to adjust the timing curve and it's not even needed for the bike to run, the ECU isn't "for" the carb. Try unplugging the tps on a FI bike and let me know how far you get.

As we start into fly by wire systems it's gonna get worse for EFI vehicles until technology catches up, servos aren't reliable yet.
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:18 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Paebr332 View Post


Therein lies your problem. You cannot simply count the number of components and draw any conclusion UNTIL you know the failure rates of the individual components. You also need to understand their failure characteristics. For example, with solid state electronics once you get past the infant mortality failure phase (typically a few dozen hours of operation) they have infinitesimally small random normal failure rates and they take a long, long time to reach the end-of-life mortality phase. Mechanical components feature much, much higher random mid-life failure rates and they reach the end-of-life failure phase much, much earlier than do electronics. Because they are subject to physical wear they simply wear out. They are also much more prone to vibration-induced spontaneous adjustment. That's fancy-talk for mechanical stuff (like springs, screws and bolts) working loose.

Back to my original example. If we just counted components and applied an average mechanical by-component failure rate, as you believe is sufficient, then your computer with its tens of thousands of individual components (let's not even get into the number of individual semiconductors etched onto the CPU) could never work. Ever.

If we just ASSUME equal component failure rates when comparing electronics to mechanical systems the electronic systems would NEVER work. This is the fundamental root of your error. You do not understand the very basics of reliability engineering, nor the failure rates of modern electronics components. Not one bit.
When I was young, I worked fairly extensively with vacuum tube circuits and then progressed to solid state devices. Vacuum tubes, primitive as they are, will handle momentary overloads and voltage transients that will instantly smoke a solid state circuit. Solid state devices are very reliable as long as they're not operated close to their maximum ratings. One needs to hope that whoever designed the EFI/ignition system on their bike took this into account during design and development.

Ford designed an ignition module at one time that they heat sinked to the side of the distributor. Unfortunately, it wouldn't dissipate enough heat at that location, and the failure rate went through the roof. They finally had to relocate the module to a remote heat sink off the engine to get enough cooling.

I can live with either EFI or carburetors, makes no difference to me.
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:51 AM   #112
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Won't be long and fuel injection will be mandatory due to emissions testing, carbs just can't pass the testing


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Old 01-28-2013, 09:21 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by larryboy View Post
Uhm, you know what it's for? No? It's a tps to adjust the timing curve and it's not even needed for the bike to run, the ECU isn't "for" the carb. Try unplugging the tps on a FI bike and let me know how far you get.

As we start into fly by wire systems it's gonna get worse for EFI vehicles until technology catches up, servos aren't reliable yet.


Reliability is a pretty big deal in the airline business. Fly by wire systems seem to do okay there.

I am really, really glad that the anti-EFI people are not involved in the design or manufacturing of high reliability equipment.
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:08 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Paebr332 View Post


Therein lies your problem. You cannot simply count the number of components and draw any conclusion UNTIL you know the failure rates of the individual components. You also need to understand their failure characteristics. For example, with solid state electronics once you get past the infant mortality failure phase (typically a few dozen hours of operation) they have infinitesimally small random normal failure rates and they take a long, long time to reach the end-of-life mortality phase. Mechanical components feature much, much higher random mid-life failure rates and they reach the end-of-life failure phase much, much earlier than do electronics. Because they are subject to physical wear they simply wear out. They are also much more prone to vibration-induced spontaneous adjustment. That's fancy-talk for mechanical stuff (like springs, screws and bolts) working loose.

Back to my original example. If we just counted components and applied an average mechanical by-component failure rate, as you believe is sufficient, then your computer with its tens of thousands of individual components (let's not even get into the number of individual semiconductors etched onto the CPU) could never work. Ever.

If we just ASSUME equal component failure rates when comparing electronics to mechanical systems the electronic systems would NEVER work. This is the fundamental root of your error. You do not understand the very basics of reliability engineering, nor the failure rates of modern electronics components. Not one bit.
what horseshit!

in the real world electronics can and does fail ... don't get me wrong. modern electronics are very reliable. but tell it to all the folks taking extended trips only to have their trip of a lifetime cut short by a very expensive repair bill. most folks either run out of $$$ and/or time. how would you like to be stuck somewhere for 3 weeks waiting for a high $$$ part that only is available from BMW to come in?

this is after getting their super high tech bike towed a few hundred miles to the nearest BMW dealer. only to find out repair work that cost thousands $$$ on their almost new bike is not under warranty.

don't believe me .. look up what a brain box costs for an R1200GS or fuel injection pump or what ever ... cheap and BMW fuel injection parts usually don't go together.

here's my Luddite electronics lab , back when I was into micro circuit boards used for LED drivers.

_cy_ screwed with this post 01-28-2013 at 10:17 AM
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:24 AM   #115
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Reliability is a pretty big deal in the airline business. Fly by wire systems seem to do okay there.

I am really, really glad that the anti-EFI people are not involved in the design or manufacturing of high reliability equipment.

Hard to believe, but I've replaced low mile Ford servo throttle plate assemblies. Shoot, just two weeks ago I had to replace a throttle actuator on a Cummins CNG engine, $6,000...yes, SIX THOUSAND DOLLARS. I've got another truck that needs one too, it's pretty strange to give an engine throttle to get it to slow down.
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:44 AM   #116
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what horseshit!

in the real world electronics can and does fail ... don't get me wrong. modern electronics are very reliable. but tell it to all the folks taking extended trips only to have their trip of a lifetime cut short by a very expensive repair bill. most folks either run out of $$$ and/or time. how would you like to be stuck somewhere for 3 weeks waiting for a high $$$ part that only is available from BMW to come in?
Data is not the plural form of anecdote. Do you happen to have any actual data, like MTBF of PFD numbers to support your argument that carbs are superior to EFI? If not, you may be the victim of confirmation bias. In God we trust. All others bring data.

EFI systems are replacing carbs because they are more reliable, more efficient, more flexible and more tuneable. The manufacturers have looked at real data based on decades of analysis. That is why all them are replacing carbs with EFI. It's not some conspiracy. It's progress based on cold hard scientific facts.
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:46 AM   #117
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All others bring data.

EFI systems are replacing carbs because they are more reliable, more efficient, more flexible and more tuneable.

False, completely false.


Newbs bring beer, get me a beer.


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Old 01-28-2013, 10:50 AM   #118
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Hard to believe, but I've replaced low mile Ford servo throttle plate assemblies. Shoot, just two weeks ago I had to replace a throttle actuator on a Cummins CNG engine, $6,000...yes, SIX THOUSAND DOLLARS. I've got another truck that needs one too, it's pretty strange to give an engine throttle to get it to slow down.
This is hilarious. You are arguing in favor of an all mechanical system (carbs) by pointing to mechanical failures in an electro-mechanical system.
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:59 AM   #119
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False, completely false.


Newbs bring beer, get me a beer.


Odd. A few years ago I worked for a company that built electronics for the automotive industry (among many, many others). While I cannot divulge specific data due to NDA issues, I can state with confidence that I actually know what I am talking about having seen the data. And I saw the data because my job was to teach the engineers how to analyze it in statistically valid ways.

Funny, but there were 14.5 million new cars and trucks sold in America last year. And I am unaware of a single one that did not come with EFI. So the fact that there are SOME failures of EFI units should not come as a surprise. They constitute 100% of the new car and truck population.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:01 AM   #120
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False, completely false.


Newbs bring beer, get me a beer.


Let me guess...you also think it's a giant conspiracy to charge us more money by making everything more complex and unreliable. Yup, you figured it out...they figured out that carbs and points were too reliable, and figured out how to make it more complex so we would have to spend more

My experience is that EFI is much easier to work on, is more reliable, easier to tune, less complex (especially in the automotive world...remember those miserable emissions laden carbs with miles of complex vacuum lines?)...every piece of shit I own with a carb gives me problems (especially if it sits for more than a couple of weeks) while all my fuel injected machines are problem free. Must be part of the complex conspiracy, to lull me into a false sense of security
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