The issues of fuel injectors and "adventure" bikes

[Bugz]

Originally Posted by Paebr332

Data is not the plural form of anecdote. Do you happen to have any actual data, like MTBF of PFD numbers to support your argument that carbs are superior to EFI? If not, you may be the victim of confirmation bias. In God we trust. All others bring data.

EFI systems are replacing carbs because they are more reliable, more efficient, more flexible and more tuneable. The manufacturers have looked at real data based on decades of analysis. That is why all them are replacing carbs with EFI. It's not some conspiracy. It's progress based on cold hard scientific facts.

As a ship engineer myself I must be completly mad to sail those big FUL OF UNRELIABLE ELECTRONICS rigs all over the pacific and beyond .

Although I'm really no speciaist in electrics and and electronics. They really have made life a lot more easier, and cheaper as well

Fair enough. Current BMW's seem to be a bit 'inadequate' with regards with reliability, and that's why you won't find one in my garage the upcomming yeras.

The last thing I'm worried about failing on my CBR250 is the EFI and ABS.

I actually think that chances of the thing failing are as big as the me winning the lotery

[NJ-Brett]

Many parts on a FI system can fail and not impact the bike much.
I think any sensor can fail except the crank position sensor and the bike will still run.
In some cases, you would not even notice a sensor being bad.
So that impacts the amount of parts that can fail bit of the equation.

Not sure how many parts can fail on a points carb setup and still have the bike run ok.

[Paebr332]

Originally Posted by Bugz

As a ship engineer myself I must be completly mad to sail those big FUL OF UNRELIABLE ELECTRONICS rigs all over the pacific and beyond .

Although I'm really no speciaist in electrics and and electronics. They really have made life a lot more easier, and cheaper as well

Fair enough. Current BMW's seem to be a bit 'inadequate' with regards with reliability, and that's why you won't find one in my garage the upcomming yeras.

The last thing I'm worried about failing on my CBR250 is the EFI and ABS.

I actually think that chances of the thing failing are as big as the me winning the lotery

Bah. Sails are where it's at. None of those new fangled, unreliable infernal combustion engines could ever be as dependable as the breath of God on the water. Good Lord, there are explosions inside those contraptions!

It's witchcraft I tell ye. Witchcraft.

[Bugz]

Originally Posted by Paebr332

Bah. Sails are where it's at. None of those new fangled, unreliable infernal combustion engines could ever be as dependable as the breath of God on the water. Good Lord, there are explosions inside those contraptions!

It's witchcraft I tell ye. Witchcraft.

You sir, made my day!

[slartidbartfast]

Originally Posted by _cy_

pleaseeesssee ... do you actually belief that horseshit?

Stock question to anyone not sharing your myopic view and luddite sensibilities?

Diagram does not really tell the whole story. FI has multiple redundancies and will usually still run with one or more sensors out of service. Both systems have advantages and disadvantages - debated to death with no firm resolution. Opinion on points is far less contentious - so anyone holding out on that position has little credibility when discussing other "new-fangled" technology.

Do you carry maps and a compass instead of GPS? Still lugging that analog bagphone around? Believe waxed cotton is superior to Goretex?

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by slartidbartfast

Stock question to anyone not sharing your myopic view and luddite sensibilities?

Diagram does not really tell the whole story. FI has multiple redundancies and will usually still run with one or more sensors out of service. Both systems have advantages and disadvantages - debated to death with no firm resolution. Opinion on points is far less contentious - so anyone holding out on that position has little credibility when discussing other "new-fangled" technology.

Do you carry maps and a compass instead of GPS? Still lugging that analog bagphone around? Believe waxed cotton is superior to Goretex?

fair question ... nope I run Aerostich roadcrafter and motoport mesh kevlar, use latest Garmin Montana, Earth-X ETX36C or Shorai LFX36 in R80G/S. feel free to browse my LiFePO4 testing thread. which contains some of the most technical information on Adv. hence why I laugh when accused of being a Luddite

don't assume just because I've decided point/condenser/carb in R80G/S is the best tool to go RTW. that automatically I'm using all stone age equipment or that I don't how to work on fuel injection and electronic ignitions...

again... please put this in context for an Adventure bike that if it broke down in the middle to no-where... how are you going to get it backup. all the horseshit about how reliable and superior fuel injection is to carb... has no effect in the real world.

LOTS of BMW GS riders thinking they've the best tool to take them RTW.... until some of that high tech electronics takes a dump followed by an expensive $$$ trip ending repair bill!

it's not just the electronic or the lack of .... why R80G/S was my choice...

there's also livelihood of mechanical break downs along with electronic. let's see.. R800GS rear end bearings self destroys itself ... stator goes out after about 45k miles, no knock sensor with folks destroying their engine after a bad load of fuel, fuel pump going out, fork leg castings failing ... what am I forgetting? but it's a GS ... a very reliable adventure bike!

by the way, not so flippen to think R80G/S couldn't also take a dump on a long trip ... but odds are I'll be able to get her back up in short order with tools/spare parts on my bike.

[slartidbartfast]

Originally Posted by _cy_

fair question ... nope I run Aerostich roadcrafter and motoport mesh kevlar, use latest Garmin Montana, Earth-X ETX36C in R80G/S. feel free to browse my LiFePO4 testing thread. which contains some of the most technical information on Adv. hence why I laugh when accused of being a Luddite

don't assume just because I've decided point/condenser/carb in R80G/S is the best tool to go RTW. that automatically I'm using all stone age equipment.

again... please put this in context for an Adventure bike that if it broke down in the middle to no-where... how are you going to get it backup. all the horseshit about how reliable and superior fuel injection is to carb... has no effect in the real world.

LOTS of BMW GS riders thinking they've the best tool to take them RTW.... until some of that high tech electronics takes a dump followed by an expensive $$$ trip ending repair bill!

In your particular position, with a meticulously rebuilt bike, and carefully selected spares, you should have a machine that can get you home, even if it does suffer some kind of ignition or carburation-related problem. Making the blanket statement that points are more reliable than electronic ignition, or carbs more reliable than FI is just absurd, however. Pointing to the number of electronics failures on RTW trips, is likely more a reflection of what vehicles are MAKING RTW trips IMO.

[ABHulgan]

Originally Posted by Paebr332

Funny, but there were 14.5 million new cars and trucks sold in America last year. And I am unaware of a single one that did not come with EFI. So the fact that there are SOME failures of EFI units should not come as a surprise. They constitute 100% of the new car and truck population.

Anything mankind builds can fail, and will, eventually. Even carby bikes, like my trusty KLR, will fail at some point. If it's not the carb, it could be a fuel line, petcock, etc. Or other stuff-coil, coil wire, CDI box, tire inner tube. Even the simplest conveyance we have (but rarely use), our feet, could fail due to a sprained ankle or broken kneecap.

You could carry a truckload of spare parts behind you. I've four-wheeled all around the country, and used to carry a load of spare parts, but eventually learned that you won't always have the right part or tool. The best solution is to be mentally prepared to deal with whatever comes up.

I still carry tools, but I don't carry spare CDI's, carbs, petcocks, coils, etc. Ride it and don't worry; if something fails, take a deep breath and do some thinking. You'll come up with something. I've yet to see a bike or 4x4 still on the trail, with the owner waiting months and years for help. Everybody gets home eventually.

[Aj Mick]

Originally Posted by corndog67

I bet you guys also griped when electronic ignitions replaced points (can't fix it by the side of the road!).

When electronic ignitions first appeared on the scene people said that they were fine until they went wrong, they they cost a fortune to replace. Nowadays we don't even think about ignitions, and I have not heard of one going wrong.

My guess is that it will be the same with EFI.

My 15 year-old bike has a carb, which doesn't get along with gasohol (gasoline with ethanol added). Gasoline is increasingly hard to get around these parts (Thailand) as government policy is to pas it out. Fuel injectors are gasohol compatible.

[JimVonBaden]

Originally Posted by Bugz

As a ship engineer myself I must be completly mad to sail those big FUL OF UNRELIABLE ELECTRONICS rigs all over the pacific and beyond .

Although I'm really no speciaist in electrics and and electronics. They really have made life a lot more easier, and cheaper as well

Fair enough. Current BMW's seem to be a bit 'inadequate' with regards with reliability, and that's why you won't find one in my garage the upcomming yeras.

The last thing I'm worried about failing on my CBR250 is the EFI and ABS.

I actually think that chances of the thing failing are as big as the me winning the lotery

Any lack of reliability on a BMW is mechanical, not electronics driven. Even the ABS brakes system issues are electromechanical issues. You almost never hear of a computer dying, nor the fuel injection system with the exception of the fuel controler, and that was an issue with a rubber seal letting water in.

Jim

[JimVonBaden]

Originally Posted by slartidbartfast

In your particular position, with a meticulously rebuilt bike, and carefully selected spares, you should have a machine that can get you home, even if it does suffer some kind of ignition or carburation-related problem. Making the blanket statement that points are more reliable than electronic ignition, or carbs more reliable than FI is just absurd, however. Pointing to the number of electronics failures on RTW trips, is likely more a reflection of what vehicles are MAKING RTW trips IMO.

Good points! The Long Way Round and Long Way Down trips were made on BMWs. The failures they had were Ohlins Shocks (NOT BMW), ABS brake system on one bike due to improper welding, and two broken frames due to vastly overloading the bikes (admitted by the riders). That was on the R1150 Adventures, no issues on the R1200 in LWD!

Yes, shit can happen, but it can happen with any mechanical device. Did anyone notice how well the new Chinese bike held up for just 1000 miles? Disaster requiring guys on camels with hammers to cobble together. After 1000 miles the bike was toast. ALL mechanical bike!

Jim

[Tepi]

Try unplugging the tps on a FI bike and let me know how far you get.

Most likely you'd get an check engine light and limp home mode at worst.

Some of you guys seriously think EFI on vehicles were put together by monkies and thrown on sale without any testing? I'll just say this from my professional point of view, the tests are quite strenuous. Sometimes electronics fail, but so can mechanical points.

[John Smallberries]

Originally Posted by JimVonBaden

Good points! The Long Way Round and Long Way Down trips were made on BMWs. The failures they had were Ohlins Shocks (NOT BMW), ABS brake system on one bike due to improper welding, and two broken frames due to vastly overloading the bikes (admitted by the riders). That was on the R1150 Adventures, no issues on the R1200 in LWD!

Yes, shit can happen, but it can happen with any mechanical device. Did anyone notice how well the new Chinese bike held up for just 1000 miles? Disaster requiring guys on camels with hammers to cobble together. After 1000 miles the bike was toast. ALL mechanical bike!

Jim

Agree. The other moto-movie anecdotal evidence comes from "Terra Circa" and "Mondo Enduro" on all-mechanical Suzuki DR350s. They had multiple mechanical failures, including a complete engine rebuild in Russia. The weight of those bikes may have been better suited to the trip, but they don't make the case for ultra-reliability.

(BTW - I think the Ohlins failed on 2 of 3 of the 1200's on LWD, not LWR - but no matter...)

[JimVonBaden]

Originally Posted by John Smallberries

Agree. The other moto-movie anecdotal evidence comes from "Terra Circa" and "Mondo Enduro" on all-mechanical Suzuki DR350s. They had multiple mechanical failures, including a complete engine rebuild in Russia. The weight of those bikes may have been better suited to the trip, but they don't make the case for ultra-reliability.

(BTW - I think the Ohlins failed on 2 of 3 of the 1200's on LWD, not LWR - but no matter...)

You may be right.

Jim

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by slartidbartfast

In your particular position, with a meticulously rebuilt bike, and carefully selected spares, you should have a machine that can get you home, even if it does suffer some kind of ignition or carburation-related problem. Making the blanket statement that points are more reliable than electronic ignition, or carbs more reliable than FI is just absurd, however. Pointing to the number of electronics failures on RTW trips, is likely more a reflection of what vehicles are MAKING RTW trips IMO.

totally agree ... have never made the statement that points/condenser are more reliable than ALL electronic ignitions. just for BMW airheads, which for some reason have a higher failure rate than most other electronic ignitions.

fuel injection is an entirely different matter. due to added complexity by all the sensors, brain box, high pressure pump, injectors, mass air sensor, aux air valve, etc, etc, etc. when things are humming and is well ... a well designed fuel injection system stays in the background doing it's job. all but invisible. if/when it fails... it's a guarantee nightmare!

again .. putting in context of what an adventure bike gets put through. my reasoning says R80G/S is the best tool for me....

LOTS of folks think otherwise, so they are riding new high tech marvels... hey what ever works...