Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki & Kawasaki - Listen Up, Please...

[Sierra Thumper]

Originally Posted by Ginger Beard

I would love to own a 450cc version of a WR250r that has all of your above features but I (along with many others) am not looking to drop $10k on a bike that I am still going to have to farkle the piss out of in order for it to be right. That sentiment is magnified by the fact that I can get a 250 that does most of what you have asked all the while getting awesome mpg and being at the low end of your hypothetical MSRP. I would rather drop that extra $$ on a road trip.

Long story short: Don't hold your breath that they will build the bike you seek. The best you can do is figure out where it is that you are willing to compromise and buy the bike that fits your needs.

Buying used is the much smarter financial move.....if you have the ability to save, or already have the cash, and have a decent knowledge of machines and fair pricing, you can get a great bike in great shape for a fraction of new. Even cheaper if you're a savvy buyer Not to mention avoiding the depreciation hit of new

I do feel bad for the guys who have to finance and buy new, or just want brand new, because bike prices are going nothing but up.
But somebodies gotta take one for the team to get these used bikes on the market

[Royal Tiger]

Originally Posted by OrangeYZ

CRF250R - 227 lbs
CRF250X - 254 = 227+27
CRF250L - 320 = 254+66

YZ250F - 227
WR250F - 254 = 227+27
WR250R - 295 = 254+41

YZ450F - 245
WR450F - 273 = 245+28
WR450R - Not under 300. No way no how.

Nicely done. Thank you. We need more facts around here and less hysteria.

[mtntrails]

Originally Posted by mtntrails

KTM, BMW and Husky aren't filling this void either. All of the mid-size bikes in their current lineups fall under the "hard enduro" subcategory - designed and built as short-haul, trail to trail bikes with frequent maintenance intervals. The KTM 690 & Husky TE 610/630 are the only thumpers in their lineups that come close to the specs that we're (I'm) referring to. Don't get me wrong - I have an older tagged 400 EXC that I dearly love, but it's not a bike that I would take on an extended road trip.

WRFs & CRFXs also fall in to that "hard enduro" subcategory. All of these bikes (EXCs, XCWs, TEs, WRFs & CRFXs) are excellent and versatile, but their missions and capabilities are all more narrowly focused than the bike that is proposed in the original post of this thread.

All of these bikes have Ti valves (vs steel) that require frequent valve adjustments and wear out much faster than steel valves. Sure, Kibblewhite Performance can replace your Ti valves for steel ones, but it's an expensive proposition that requires removal of the top end, shipping the top end to Kibblewhite and reinstalling it. It's not something that most buyers are willing to do.

All of these bikes also have very little oil capacity - barely more than 1 qt. They all require very frequent oil changes even in non-race applications. Yes, you can add an oil cooler that can increase you oil capacity closer to 2 qts, but this is an expensive proposition that most buyers would not be willing to do.

All of these bikes have minimal electrical output - barely enough to add a GPS. Baja Designs and others have kits to increase electrical output, but this is an expensive proposition that most buyers would not be willing to do.

With all of this said, I don't feel that these bikes are as relevant to this thread / discussion as so many of you do. At the end of the day, I'm talking about a modern, mid-size dualsport that is capable of everything from light single track to long haul RTW travel. Again, these are all excellent bikes, but they are more narrowly focused than the more "universal" bike that is the intended subject of this thread.

[mtntrails]

Originally Posted by mtntrails

You guys are "missing the boat" in a big way...

The market is (and has been for years) screaming out for a proper, modern, mid-size (300cc - 450cc) dual-sport - a more potent version of the excellent Yamaha WR250R & Honda CRF250L

35 - 45 RWHP
Fuel Injection
6-speed Tranny
Target Weight at or Under 300lbs
3000-4000 Mile Oil Change Intervals
15k + Mile Valve Adjustment Intervals
Modern, Fully Adjustable Suspension
A Subframe Capable of Carrying Luggage & Camping Gear
An Electrical System Capable of Running Heated Gear, GPS, etc.
Build it for Unquestionable Reliability & Durability
$5000 - $9000 MSRP (depending on displacement & specs)

ADVRider, ThumperTalk, HorizonsUnlimited, et al are filled with threads and posts lamenting this huge "hole" in the marketplace. When will the "Big 4" step up and build this bike? Whoever is the first out of the gate will have a blockbuster hit on their hands - the rest will hopefully follow.

Don't forget to build a SM version too!

Here's the original post

[Grreatdog]

What i find interesting is how closely my thirteen year old LC4E matches that list. I have always found the six speed fetish here in Thumpers silly and I am perfectly happy with a well tuned carb. So those two are irrelevent to me. Otherwise I am riding a bike that meets every criteria on the list except horsepower which it exceeds by quite a lot.

My old bike weighs 325 pounds with a sweet aftermarket seat, 18l fuel tank, full DOT kit, two mirrors, centerstand, stout skid plate, full wrap hand guards, extensive tool kit, tire iron, patch kit, spare shifter and three gallons of gas on the bike. The only thing not stock, besides the seat, is the muffler which is the functional equivalent of an FMF Q series.

All of which begs the question: why can't anybody else do that now? The answer is money. This bike cost $7000 when Bill Clinton was still President.

[Ginger Beard]

Originally Posted by Grreatdog

All of which begs the question: why can't anybody else do that now? The answer is money. This bike cost $7000 when Bill Clinton was still President.

And that is what seems to be getting missed in all of this. The big 4 definitely have the skill set to pull of a DS bike that is sub 300lbs with virtually zero maintenance and plenty of power all the while being super reliable and ergonomically perfect. They could even make it complete with integrated luggage and a huge fuel capacity to go along with being extremely fuel efficient. The thing is who will be able to afford it ? Who here will actually be willing to drop the $12-15k (maybe more) that it would take to make the bike profitable for these companies? We would all drool over them as we searched Craigslist and ADVR for an affordable used bike that would do most of what we want and all of what we need. They would sell a few and within one or two model years the bike would disappear from the lineup. In the end there are bikes that fit most of what the OP has asked but they are built by Euro companies. Is that so bad? I hear the new KTM500 EXC even gets good mpg.

[NJ-Brett]

I do not need a great bike, and I suspect many others don't, you can upgrade something you find lacking in most cases. So I do not want a race bike that is good for RTW use, or a 600+ cc bike, really, it can be a crappy bike if its 350cc to 450cc and has a reasonable transmission.
As you get down to simple 350cc type bikes, a 6 speed is very nice for the range of speeds dual sports need to do.
On a bigger bike with loads of power and torque, its not as important, but on lower power bikes, you need the range without huge gaps between gears.
The DR650 is fine with a 5 speed in most situations, any 250 to 350 bike should have a 6 speed.
As you go up in power, the power curve moves to the upper rpm's, like the wr250.
That bike would suck with a 5 speed.

For old tech, the DR350 came close to what everyone wants.

[mtntrails]

A modernized DR350SE would be awesome!

Way back in the day, I had a '92 or '93 DR350 - I think it was an S model (??) - street legal, but I don't remember it having electric start - what a great bike! Whenever I come accross a used one, I'm always tempted.

Do you guys recall seeing "Mondo Enduro" and "Terra Circa" http://mondoenduro.com/ where a group of British riders did a RTW adventure on DR350s? I think it was that video that really sparked my passion for lightweight adventure touring.

[VxZeroKnots]

Originally Posted by mtntrails

WRFs & CRFXs also fall in to that "hard enduro" subcategory. All of these bikes (EXCs, XCWs, TEs, WRFs & CRFXs) are excellent and versatile, but their missions and capabilities are all more narrowly focused than the bike that is proposed in the original post of this thread.

All of these bikes have Ti valves (vs steel) that require frequent valve adjustments and wear out much faster than steel valves. Sure, Kibblewhite Performance can replace your Ti valves for steel ones, but it's an expensive proposition that requires removal of the top end, shipping the top end to Kibblewhite and reinstalling it. It's not something that most buyers are willing to do.

All of these bikes also have very little oil capacity - barely more than 1 qt. They all require very frequent oil changes even in non-race applications. Yes, you can add an oil cooler that can increase you oil capacity closer to 2 qts, but this is an expensive proposition that most buyers would not be willing to do.

All of these bikes have minimal electrical output - barely enough to add a GPS. Baja Designs and others have kits to increase electrical output, but this is an expensive proposition that most buyers would not be willing to do.

With all of this said, I don't feel that these bikes are as relevant to this thread / discussion as so many of you do. At the end of the day, I'm talking about a modern, mid-size dualsport that is capable of everything from light single track to long haul RTW travel. Again, these are all excellent bikes, but they are more narrowly focused than the more "universal" bike that is the intended subject of this thread.

Ahhhh My TE holds 1.7L of oil and the valves haven't moved in a couple hundred hours of very hard riding.

[Grreatdog]

Originally Posted by mtntrails

A modernized DR350SE would be awesome!

.....

I would consider one if they put real suspension on it and knocked about 20 pounds off the original. The originals were more than a little porky and the suspension was typical Japanese marshmallow soft. But I liked the motor and transmission. I was just on a ride with this one a few months ago. Which was weird because I shot the photo below when it was brand new and belonged to another old friend. It is the first year model and still kicking after three abusive owners. He didn't even have the permanent tag yet with stock Death Wings and already buried in a swamp.

[motoman250f]

Mtntrails, just to further this we are talking about dual sports not enduro's. we could easily add definition to what makes a dual sport so heavy but also makes it last longer than the "hard enduro's". You had a partial list but it goes on. maybe orange can add weights of true dual sports? I don't think anybody really believes that a wr450r would be any lighter than a te 610/630 and we see how well that model has lasted! discontinued!

strong subframe to support bags
cooling fan/overflow bottle
larger radiator sometimes
larger battery
high beam/switches
brake light
blinkers/flasher/wiring/controls
speedo/trip/tach sometimes
overbuilt frame, tranny, engine, hubs(cush), clutch etc.
steel locking gas tank
helmet lock
reflectors
smog stuff
airbox flappers
exhaust pipe valves (xhup for example)
horn
tool kit
ignition
mirrors
non ktm seat ;-)

[mtntrails]

Originally Posted by motoman250f

I don't think anybody really believes that a (wr450r) would be any lighter than a te 610/630

strong subframe to support bags
cooling fan/overflow bottle
larger radiator sometimes
larger battery
high beam/switches
brake light
blinkers/flasher/wiring/controls
speedo/trip/tach sometimes
overbuilt frame, tranny, engine, hubs(cush), clutch etc.
steel locking gas tank
helmet lock
reflectors
smog stuff
airbox flappers
exhaust pipe valves (xhup for example)
horn
tool kit
ignition
mirrors
non ktm seat ;-)

I believe that wholeheartedly. If it's a ground-up design/build effort, there is absolutely no reason that it can't be at or under 300 lbs. (curb) ...and there is no reason that it couldn't be well under $9k either. If it's going to have a broad market appeal, volume sales and a 10+ model year shelf life in the marketplace, I think it would have to be.

Why do you (and maybe others) think otherwise?

Non KTM Seat... I'm with you there, brother!

[Gryphon12]

Race bikes and DS bikes have some overlap in their design specs, but not all of their objectives are compatible.

Sorry, but one more time, you can't have the broad range of function, power, reliability AND light weight dual sport without very expensive materials. And with the subframe, higher output alternator and battery needed for a true DS, and the frame strength to handle the torque of a 450cc motor, and rims, clutch and suspension to go with it all, no, you cannot get the weight under 300 lbs, and probably not under 325 lbs. Not without titanium and carbon fiber components that cost A LOT and that may still bend or crack under high loads / stresses.

The old LC4's and the TE610/630 actually did a really good job, and 315-335-350 lbs. wet is what they weigh with about 18L of fuel on board. A 450 will only shave a little weight off of these totals. You can continue to live in denial if you want, but your expectations of 300 lbs., $9k US, and this complete list of components are unrealistic.

[SCQTT]

Originally Posted by Gryphon12

Race bikes and DS bikes have some overlap in their design specs, but not all of their objectives are compatible.

Sorry, but one more time, you can't have the broad range of function, power, reliability AND light weight dual sport without very expensive materials. And with the subframe, higher output alternator and battery needed for a true DS, and the frame strength to handle the torque of a 450cc motor, and rims, clutch and suspension to go with it all, no, you cannot get the weight under 300 lbs, and probably not under 325 lbs. Not without titanium and carbon fiber components that cost A LOT and that may still bend or crack under high loads / stresses.

The old LC4's and the TE610/630 actually did a really good job, and 315-335-350 lbs. wet is what they weigh with about 18L of fuel on board. A 450 will only shave a little weight off of these totals. You can continue to live in denial if you want, but your expectations of 300 lbs., $9k US, and this complete list of components are unrealistic.

Yeah, I have been saying that too, but there is some sort of false sense of reality here.

[Kommando]

Originally Posted by Gryphon12

Race bikes and DS bikes have some overlap in their design specs, but not all of their objectives are compatible.

Sorry, but one more time, you can't have the broad range of function, power, reliability AND light weight dual sport without very expensive materials. And with the subframe, higher output alternator and battery needed for a true DS, and the frame strength to handle the torque of a 450cc motor, and rims, clutch and suspension to go with it all, no, you cannot get the weight under 300 lbs, and probably not under 325 lbs. Not without titanium and carbon fiber components that cost A LOT and that may still bend or crack under high loads / stresses.

The old LC4's and the TE610/630 actually did a really good job, and 315-335-350 lbs. wet is what they weigh with about 18L of fuel on board. A 450 will only shave a little weight off of these totals. You can continue to live in denial if you want, but your expectations of 300 lbs., $9k US, and this complete list of components are unrealistic.

People have shaved DR-Z400s down below 300lb. With a lot of things already covered by the aftermarket, that bike just needs a 6spd, with gearspread like the WR250R's. Suzuki could even spread the ratios out on the existing 5spd box. The aftermarket already has, but it's expensive for the individual owner. Suzuki could do it relatively cheaply. The aftermarket can already take care of the rest of making that bike pretty sweet...big tank, screen, suspension, luggage, power, kicker, etc. The bike doesn't need to be expensive, or made of lots of exotic materials. Suzuki could make and sell it for about the existing MSRP of the DR-Z...'maybe + $500-$1000. They wouldn't need to really even change anything else. The bike would still sell.