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Old 01-31-2013, 06:52 PM   #211
mtntrails OP
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If the big 4 can make a dependable, durable, 150rwhp, 4 cylinder, liter class sport bike that weighs less than 450 curb lbs and sell it for $13500, they can certainly build a dependable, durable, mid bore, single cylinder dualsport that weighs less than 300 lbs and sells for under $9000.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:00 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by mtntrails View Post
If the big 4 can make a dependable, durable, 150rwhp, 4 cylinder, liter class sport bike that weighs less than 450 curb lbs and sell it for $13500, they can certainly build a dependable, durable, mid bore, single cylinder dualsport that weighs less than 300 lbs and sells for under $9000.
A lot of people want that first one, and they prove it with their wallets. Not many people want that second one, and if Japan makes it, they wait for them to hit the used market cheap.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:57 PM   #213
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How much would an updated ATK605 cost?

(If they were still selling it?)
(And the name wasn't sold to the S. Koreans?)
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Old 01-31-2013, 11:30 PM   #214
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Hmm. I'm always willing to learn something new. Please consider:

1). Starting with a KTM-500-EXC-F at 255 lbs. wet. Add necessary components to build the bike to a DS with the above listed specifications. Weigh each addition. Will it weigh less than 300 lbs?

2). Starting with a KTM-690 Enduro R at 335 lbs. wet. Subtract (or add) components to get to a 450cc DS version with the above listed specifications. Weigh each change. Will it weigh less than 300 lbs?

3). Providing another rationale to get any starting chassis to 300 lbs. with the above listed specifications.

For the moment, let's ignore cost; we can always factor it in later.

I'd love to see what you can come up with.

P.S. Folks running the KTM Freeride 350 (228 lbs. wet with a 5.5 L or 1.5 gal US gas tank) are working to build a hybrid trials/trail bike into a very light DS. It won't make the specs listed above, but I'm watching carefully to see how far they can go. Actual work ongoing right now. Next summer should be interesting (or next fall for those working with this bike in Australia).
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Old 02-01-2013, 06:03 AM   #215
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If you want a two wheel Jeep I tend to agree that 290 ish ready to ride would be about as good as it gets for a 450. Since I could easily get my my 640E down to 315 gassed and ready to ride with all the crap listed, it seems to me that a lighter engine, commensurate lighter frame and lighter suspension could shave another 20 pounds off.

But then I am no dreamer chopping weight because I have tried shaving weight off both Yamaha and Honda dual sports. So I know how hard it is after that first ten or fifteen pounds. Beyond that you have to start figuring out what you can do without. And, since I don't use mine as a two wheel Jeep, I can do without a lot. Which explains the plated MXC.

So I wouldn't mind somebody starting from a light weight hard enduro then adding a bit more street rather than starting from a heavy weight typically much softer Japanese dual sport then working backwards. I would love a bike that hits the sweet spot between my 640E and MXC200.
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:43 AM   #216
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Back on the 450cc Japanese bike for a moment, at 67 I've had just about all the dual sport bikes I wanted in my younger riding days. Today I have tapered back some and all that HP, suspension, I don't seem to need anymore like I did back them, it's just the joy riding for me. For me it's now a Suzuki 650 V-Strom and the Honda CRF250L that I just purchased. What a great bike for what it is, it's like going back 40 years when this size bike was tops. But what I think about is if this bike said, CRF450L on the side, this would be one great bike, it could do it all.

John
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:56 AM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryphon12 View Post

P.S. Folks running the KTM Freeride 350 (228 lbs. wet with a 5.5 L or 1.5 gal US gas tank) are working to build a hybrid trials/trail bike into a very light DS. It won't make the specs listed above, but I'm watching carefully to see how far they can go. Actual work ongoing right now. Next summer should be interesting (or next fall for those working with this bike in Australia).
Still not sure why people seem to keep thinking the Freeride is some kind of low maintenance dual sport capable bike. It has the 350 EXC motor tuned for torque instead of HP and it saves a little more weight by getting rid of the kickstarter. Still has 20 hour oil change intervals. It's purpose is for trials type hard core trail riding. Id rather have the 350 EXC.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:36 AM   #218
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They also save a little more weight on the Freeride by just having a seat / fender support, rather than a true rear subframe - which is the main draw back for using the bike for anything more than hybrid trials. The only thing I'd like to see is a larger gas tank. I love the bike for what it is, and am anxious to see what folks think of it after several years of ownership. I agree - the 350 EXC-F is a more versatile bike, but it is still a racing enduro with lights. The new KTM's seem durable, however, and I'm watching them carefully. Now, where are those 390 models in Moto3, Duke and Adv trim?
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:53 PM   #219
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does anybody care to comment on the fate of these bikes that have pushed toward these goals we are talking about? Seems to me the wr/crf250r, ktm 690, and the te 610 are all pushing toward as light a dual sport as can be made with reliability in mind. The TE 610 is the closest thing to a 300 lbs 50 hp dual sport we have seen and its now gone! Looks like there's no money in it? Someone on here said not only are we picky but we are a cheap bunch too.
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Old 02-01-2013, 02:38 PM   #220
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We can't be that cheap. At least not my fellow NoVA and suburban MD riders. In my neck of the woods KTM seems to sell EXC's like Happy Meals. They are the single most common new dual sport I see on the trail anymore. On the street the most common new dual sports I see are BMW's. Neither of those are exactly bargain priced motorcycles.

Maybe here in Thumpers there is a cry for this one very specific thing at a cheap price from the Japanese. But it seems to me most riders around here have already accepted that Europe is their future. I say that because I just don't see many new Hondas and Suzukis anymore. Though I do see are a few new WR250's and KLR650's.

So to sum up the market here: premium light weight plated enduros sell well, premium heavy weight adventure bikes sell well, premium small dual sports that I would call trail bikes sell well and, well, do I really have to say what kind of riders are still buying their new KLR650's.
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Old 02-01-2013, 03:20 PM   #221
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Yeah but those exc's arent light dual sports,, they are enduro dedicated offroad bikes. the bmw's are big adventure bikes. those are expensive but us lightweight dual sport dreamers are cheap. you would think if we wanted the best of both of those worlds we would be ready to pay at least what those bikes are going for and yet listen to us.. <9k
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Old 02-01-2013, 03:26 PM   #222
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Yeah but those exc's arent light dual sports,, they are enduro dedicated offroad bikes. the bmw's are big adventure bikes. those are expensive but us lightweight dual sport dreamers are cheap. you would think if we wanted the best of both of those worlds we would be ready to pay at least what those bikes are going for and yet listen to us.. <9k
except they are dual sports, the xc-w and the xc-f are the enduro bikes.
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Old 02-01-2013, 05:00 PM   #223
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except they are dual sports, the xc-w and the xc-f are the enduro bikes.
I see you like Orange Kool-Aid. The EXC's are DOT legal Enduro Race bikes. The new 350/500 engines do look to have improvements which should help on the durablility front, so as a long stretch, can be used as a dual sport. Even KTM doesn't list the EXC's in the same category as the 690E.
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Old 02-01-2013, 07:42 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Gryphon12 View Post
I see you like Orange Kool-Aid. The EXC's are DOT legal Enduro Race bikes. The new 350/500 engines do look to have improvements which should help on the durablility front, so as a long stretch, can be used as a dual sport. Even KTM doesn't list the EXC's in the same category as the 690E.
Those of us that have actually OWNED the EXC's are quite familiar with the excellent durability of the older RFS bikes, and the fact that perform quite admirably as dual sports. The 690 is merely a supermoto designed bike that was later adapted to a dual sport model, so yeah you're right., it's not in the same category.
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Old 02-01-2013, 08:05 PM   #225
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I don't know!

If I was in the market I would probably buy another XR650L or a DRZ 400. Sure I know the KTM/Husky etc will kick ass but at a much higher price and not close in reliability. Its still 75% rider and 25% bike in the rough stuff. In the past I usually beat buddies to the top of a nasty, knarly hill on my XRL while they were riding their 525s etc. And you know those XRs are old tech but just keep running without much TLC. With TLC, they will run forever. DRZ is a little quicker and lighter but I love the foot of suspension travel on the XRL. Plus I've owned 2 in the past. I'm on an S10 now from a GS12 and I really like the S10 better. Nice to get back on a Jap bike again though.
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