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Old 02-02-2013, 04:21 AM   #226
mtntrails OP
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Originally Posted by Gryphon12 View Post
Hmm. I'm always willing to learn something new. Please consider:

1). Starting with a KTM-500-EXC-F at 255 lbs. wet. Add necessary components to build the bike to a DS with the above listed specifications. Weigh each addition. Will it weigh less than 300 lbs?

2). Starting with a KTM-690 Enduro R at 335 lbs. wet. Subtract (or add) components to get to a 450cc DS version with the above listed specifications. Weigh each change. Will it weigh less than 300 lbs?

3). Providing another rationale to get any starting chassis to 300 lbs. with the above listed specifications.

For the moment, let's ignore cost; we can always factor it in later.

I'd love to see what you can come up with.

P.S. Folks running the KTM Freeride 350 (228 lbs. wet with a 5.5 L or 1.5 gal US gas tank) are working to build a hybrid trials/trail bike into a very light DS. It won't make the specs listed above, but I'm watching carefully to see how far they can go. Actual work ongoing right now. Next summer should be interesting (or next fall for those working with this bike in Australia).

Gryphon12 - thank you - lots of food for thought in this post. When time allows, I'd like to take a stab at a theoretical build up of the 350 / 500 EXC example.

As mentioned in an earlier post, a KTM 390 based dualsport is all but confirmed. http://hellforleathermagazine.com/20...alks-new-390s/
The 44 hp 390 Duke is 320 lbs curb. Is there any reason why KTM could not achieve <300 lbs curb going from Duke to Dualsport? HFL also reports that the 390 Duke will have a ~$6500 MSRP when it hits the US market.
http://hellforleathermagazine.com/20...or-a-used-600/

mtntrails screwed with this post 02-02-2013 at 04:35 AM Reason: added a line
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:17 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by motoman250f View Post
does anybody care to comment on the fate of these bikes that have pushed toward these goals we are talking about? Seems to me the wr/crf250r, ktm 690, and the te 610 are all pushing toward as light a dual sport as can be made with reliability in mind. The TE 610 is the closest thing to a 300 lbs 50 hp dual sport we have seen and its now gone! Looks like there's no money in it? Someone on here said not only are we picky but we are a cheap bunch too.
The only reason this bike was cancelled was because BMW cancelled it so they could cram their own motors/parts/bikes down Husky's throat.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:25 AM   #228
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The only reason this bike was cancelled was because BMW cancelled it so they could cram their own motors/parts/bikes down Husky's throat.
Thats BMW's way
The news is that BMW sold Husky to the former CEO (I believe?) of KTM, who sold his KTM shares to the part owner of KTM...an Indian firm, who now have controlling interest in KTM

Supposedly Husky and Husaberg will be under the same management now. I guess we'll get to see what direction the new ownership takes with Husky......as well as how KTM changes being majority owned by an Indian firm
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Old 02-02-2013, 08:21 AM   #229
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Thats BMW's way
The news is that BMW sold Husky to the former CEO (I believe?) of KTM, who sold his KTM shares to the part owner of KTM...an Indian firm, who now have controlling interest in KTM

Supposedly Husky and Husaberg will be under the same management now. I guess we'll get to see what direction the new ownership takes with Husky......as well as how KTM changes being majority owned by an Indian firm

Another interesting HFL article...

http://hellforleathermagazine.com/20...ing-husqvarna/
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Old 02-02-2013, 08:39 AM   #230
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That pretty much mirrors what I expected. Before the BMW thing Husky was already carving out a small niche as the more affordable almost ready to race Euro offroad/dual sport bike. His compete with the Big Four statement sounds to me like he wants to go back to that strategy.

And there is still some unmolested Husky DNA in the 310 and WR's. Plus they are already selling a lot of Terras which is a direct shot at the KLR650 market. So they aren't starting from scratch. I hope he is wildly successful just to force the Japanese out of complacency.

Plus I still want a 310.
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Old 02-02-2013, 08:51 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Grreatdog View Post

His "compete with the Big Four" statement sounds to me like he wants to go back to that strategy.

I hope he is wildly successful just to force the Japanese out of complacency.

.
Excellent point, Grreatdog!
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Old 02-02-2013, 09:04 AM   #232
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Maybe it's going to take a very successful mid size dualsport or two from a competitor to get the attention of the "big 4". They are sure not paying attention to their customer base.
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Old 02-02-2013, 11:33 AM   #233
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In 1969, Triumph could build a 500cc twin, with iron cylinders, metal fenders, NO plastic, huge drum brakes, steel wheels, dual exhaust, massive crankshaft, 4 quart oil tank, heavy steel clutch and primary chain, and get the weight well under 350 pounds.
Maybe they could get the weight well under 350 pounds, but they never did. The early drum brake Triumph 500 twins weighed just under 400 pounds with a full tank of gas. And that was without electric start, disc brakes, fuel injection, liquid cooling, long travel suspension, counterbalancers, or any of the modern dictates of the EPA. They were much lighter and better looking than the modern Triumphs that ape their memory, but they were no featherweights.
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Old 02-02-2013, 11:44 AM   #234
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If I am going to be rocking 300 pounds I want 50+ horsepower.
I would settle for 300 lbs. and 30 horsepower if I could just have big torque below 5000 rpm.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:02 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by mtntrails View Post
The 44 hp 390 Duke is 320 lbs curb. Is there any reason why KTM could not achieve <300 lbs curb going from Duke to Dualsport? HFL also reports that the 390 Duke will have a ~$6500 MSRP when it hits the US market.
http://hellforleathermagazine.com/20...or-a-used-600/
This question echos my own thoughts. If the shake-up with KTM/Husky doesn't derail development of the KTM 390 series by Bajaj, I think the best hope for a mid-sized dual sport is the 390 ADV variant discussed in the media several weeks ago. [Three bikes currently planned: Duke 390, Moto3, and 390 ADV.] Going from the Duke to a DS, I believe you could get under 300 lbs. However, the alternator / battery are still below DS standard at 186 watts, and the gas tank is still way too small. Fixing both would bring the weight back up a bit. How much, I really don't know.

The quality of the KTM Duke 125 and 200 made in India by Bajaj has been a step above other Bajaj products (and other Indian mfgs) because they are made on a different assembly line to KTM specs. However, the baby Dukes don't use all of the higher quality components used by the Duke 690 made in Austria, so it remains to be seen where the quality / value / price-point line is drawn by Bajaj.

All of the initial press releases suggested that the 390 product line would make it to North America, so it is still my best hope for a platform that I could live with and modify. If it really gets here.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:11 PM   #236
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As I have posted, my 640E is 325 pounds sitting in the garage right now with tools, spares, protection, centerstand, luggage rack and three gallons of gas. So figure about 305 pounds tank empty. Eliminating the centerstand puts me close to 300 and a Shorai battery puts it under. Doable? You bet. Cheap? Hell no.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:11 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by montesa_vr View Post
Maybe they could get the weight well under 350 pounds, but they never did. The early drum brake Triumph 500 twins weighed just under 400 pounds with a full tank of gas. And that was without electric start, disc brakes, fuel injection, liquid cooling, long travel suspension, counterbalancers, or any of the modern dictates of the EPA. They were much lighter and better looking than the modern Triumphs that ape their memory, but they were no featherweights.
The lightest twin Enduro/SM race bike(s) were/are the Aprilia RXV/SXV 4.5 and 5.5 (450cc & 550cc). At about 305 lbs. wet they were light, powerful and very fast. Their state of tune was so high, however, that they were not what most of us call reliable. Many posts on ADVRider have wondered over the years why Aprilia didn't detune these bikes a bit and sell a lot more of them. I don't follow EU Enduro race rules, but I think that rules were changed to make their design illegal, and so the motive to continue to develop them went away for Aprilia management. That was too bad from my point of view, because in a DS frame and a milder tune, this engine (and maybe the whole platform) had potential.

So, it could be done again with a twin in a package weighing about 350 lbs. (For me, from Enduro to DS, the weight goes up by about 40 lbs. with the full DS frame, alternator / battery, larger tank, etc.) However, it would be fairly expensive. Would we really buy it? Hmm.
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Old 02-02-2013, 02:29 PM   #238
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With electric engines (unavoidable future ...), they will have to evolve to light titane/polymer/carbone components anyway, should it be only to compensate batteries weight.

Maybe then will we have some in-between or paralell light-weight gas versions too, hopefully ?

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Old 02-02-2013, 02:36 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by Gryphon12 View Post
The lightest twin Enduro/SM race bike(s) were/are the Aprilia RXV/SXV 4.5 and 5.5 (450cc & 550cc). At about 305 lbs. wet they were light, powerful and very fast. Their state of tune was so high, however, that they were not what most of us call reliable. Many posts on ADVRider have wondered over the years why Aprilia didn't detune these bikes a bit and sell a lot more of them. I don't follow EU Enduro race rules, but I think that rules were changed to make their design illegal, and so the motive to continue to develop them went away for Aprilia management. That was too bad from my point of view, because in a DS frame and a milder tune, this engine (and maybe the whole platform) had potential.

So, it could be done again with a twin in a package weighing about 350 lbs. (For me, from Enduro to DS, the weight goes up by about 40 lbs. with the full DS frame, alternator / battery, larger tank, etc.) However, it would be fairly expensive. Would we really buy it? Hmm.
My SXV in track mode is 290 wet. Of course the gas tank is uber small and I can run it almost dry in one 40 minute session.

As for detuning them, I sure as hell wouldn't have wanted them to. A 70 HP sub 300 lb bike is about as much fun as you can have next to sex!
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:46 PM   #240
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I would consider [the Suzuki DR350] if they knocked about 20 pounds off the original. The originals were more than a little porky
304 with a full tank, according to October 1990 Motorcyclist test. That seems reasonable, depending on your purpose. It seems to me that we have a pretty significant divide between actual adventure riders and more focused off roaders. The latter just need something legal to link the trails. The former want something that can link trails hundreds or thousands of miles apart.

Off the Grid has made a detailed and profane case for the RFS KTMs, but they can only fill the needs of the off-roaders. Part of what makes them light is what is missing -- cooling fan, electrical output, cushion hub, adequate lighting for night riding. So let's not get too crazy expecting to get way under 300 pounds unless you want a trailer queen that couldn't do commuter duty.

Here's a slap in the face to all who think the Japanese are missing out on some big sales by leaving the serious off road market to the Europeans. When Kawasaki released their update to the KLR650 in 2008, they told Motorcycledaily that "the KLR650 has consistently out-sold all competitors -- double the sales of the next best selling dual sport (Suzuki's DR-Z400S)." Think about that. Total dual sport sales are only a sliver of total US motorcycle sales and DRZ sales were half of KLR650 sales? And everything else is behind the DRZ?

People keep asking why Yamaha hasn't brought the Tenere to the US. Its right there in those numbers -- The Tenere can't compete with the KLR on price and Yamaha doesn't believe people will pay thousands of dollars extra for a motorcycle that is not significantly lighter or more powerful.The Japanese have the numbers. They look at the KLR and think "that's what Americans want." Why would they go after KTM when the risk is so high and the return so small?

I think the introduction of three all new Japanese 250 class dual sports in the last five years is an encouraging sign. If the economy ever turns around I expect we'll see some larger clean sheet designs. They will be a step ahead of the DRZ, the XL650S, and the DR650. But if you really want a street legal motorcycle in the 450-650 class that weighs under 300 pounds, you might as well go see your KTM dealer now. Japan is never gonna try and sell a $9000 450 in the United States.

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