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Old 05-25-2013, 09:24 AM   #166
Fishfund
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Walter and Ricky. I agree with what you guys are saying and I'm ready to get involved. I have done some long multiple month rides and I think your proposed extremely ride ratio tranny is one of the keys of turning a good bike into a great adventure bike.

So what is the next step? Do we make a pole? Do we pass out CCM's phone number so everyone can call in. Does CCM even know about this thread? They should be posting here. What do we actually do?
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Old 05-25-2013, 10:06 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by George 99 View Post
To pull those wide ratios requires torque. There are legitimate reasons for gear selection between stump pulling low and high speed highway top. 6 speeds can help narrow the gap.

Still wondering if a lo-hi range 2-step tranny wouldn't fill the need. (Think about the double front ring on yur ol' ten speed bicycle.)
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Originally Posted by Colebatch View Post
Well ... when you have a look at the gear spread ratios in this post by Montesa, you will see that the top 13 widest gearboxes are all on bikes of less than 360cc.
...
Whereas torquey 650cc bikes have been given much narrower boxes.
...
One point people often miss when discussing gear ratio speads is that final drive ratios do impact how the transmission spread works. For a given transmission ratio spread, a lower final drive ratio will result in an effectively narrower transmission. In other words, lower final gearing makes the engine use a wider span of RPM for the same change in road speed. Primary reduction in the engine/transmission has the same effect, and must also be considered in the overall picture.

Now, those top bikes on Montessa's list are almost all trials bikes or low power trail bikes; these have extremely low effective final gearing, and need a wide ratio transmission to achieve a useful speed range. For these bikes, what seems like a wide ratio box on paper, really won't feel much like one in motion.

There are solid engineering principles that should be incorporated into selection of transmission and final gearing for any given application. In order to achieve the ADV bike holy grail of a super low tractor first gear and super slab capable top gear, the engine's torque curve (or power curve if you like) is critical. In short, to run at freeway speed, the engine needs to produce enough horsepower to overcome rolling resistance, drag, etc. Larger displacement engines by default are capable of producing a given amount of horsepower at a lower RPM than smaller displacement engines.

Anyway, back to the point of the new CCM's gear spread. Yes, this bike should come with a "wide ratio" transmission. The BMW/KYMCO 450 would be fully capable of handling a wide ratio spread while maintaining adequate performance for "adventure" riding (trail to freeway).

I think a dual range transmission could be useful in an adventure bike platform, but it would need to be a clean sheet engine design...much more complicated than modifying the ratios of an existing transmission design.
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Old 05-25-2013, 12:31 PM   #168
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Thank you for these latest discussions. I've found them to be very useful. For the most part, they seem to confirm my present understanding - that the gearing must be tailored to the engine, primarily to the torque curve. This is why the smaller displacement engines seem to have the widest ratio transmissions. [By contast, the popular "old school" 650's have much narrower gearing spread: XR650R 2.66, KLR650 2.86, DR650 2.93]

However, this is also why the Husky TE610/630 made such a large impression on some of our ADV crowd. A 3.40:1 spread between 1st and 6th on a (576cc/600cc motor) proved to be very useful both in the woods, on open desert, and on the highway. Many choose to deal with the other quirks and maintenance issues of the TE610/630 JUST to get this gear box.

I've sorted Montessa VR's list, both overall, and within displacement categories. It is true, only a few larger displacement bikes have wider-range transmissions. The TE610/630 are the newest. Surprisingly, of those bike over 399 cc's, the historic wide-range boxes include the old Husky 500XC (3.54:1) and the Husky 1984 400WR (3.53:1). I'm curious to know if these older Huskies had special missions of some sort. Today's Husky bikes generally have the narrowest-range transmissions on the market - presumably for Enduro / MX racing purposes.

Finally, several other 650's have transmission spread ratios between 3.25 and 3.40:1. These include the BMW G650X-series at 3.27:1 and the Yamaha XT660 Tenere at 3.29:1.

The old BMW F650GS/Dakar 5-speed is at 3.13:1. This bike was famous for doing well on the highway, and while its dirt handling wasn't as good, it seems to be mostly due to weight, not the gear ratios in 1st and 2nd - or am I confused? IF the new CCM 450 ADV weighs in at about 335 lbs. wet, it will be close to the the TE610/630, and 30 lbs. lighter than a DR650.

Does anyone have any additional persective / experience with either the older Huskies (400WR & 500XC) or the 650's between 3.13 and 3.40 ?
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Old 05-25-2013, 03:37 PM   #169
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QUOTE Does anyone have any additional persective / experience with either the older Huskies (400WR & 500XC) or the 650's between 3.13 and 3.40 ?[/QUOTE]

thanks gryphon ..interesting i have two of the bikes you mention above so im trying to logic all this out based on riding them back to back ..


now please bear with me here im learning somthing ..or trying to

im trying to understand as best i can the coralation between
primary drive ..final drive and gear spread ..

my xt 660 z is near the desired numbers that the guys in the know think the bike needs and i bow to that knowlage and expieriance
so help me out here
ive run the xt for 29000 miles and the klr for 10000 so i have a good feel forr them first hand ...they may do more miles on the road but spend moretime off it so fair to say i know the bikes quite well

the 660z as we know is certainly not a woods bike or enduro but
if you want to take to a tougher enviroment it shows up to me in the following way

stock gearing is far to tall ..to use 2nd gear on steep climbs for me ... have to use far more speed than id like i.e a fast run up ...i dont i use first ..but later when it bogs down in the ruts ..the clutch has to take a good old fanning

in winter and more locally.... to do the mud and rocky stuff ive run it with a 13 on the front ..and then the bike has enough control in 2nd and covers the gap between first it so much better in the slow going and upslope ..understandably so

of course the downside of this i is far more revs on the road 70mph being around 5200 revs ..with a13 on idont bother with first on the road i just start off in 2nd ..unless im feeling frisky .
.so quite a big change for a realativly small percentage in the gearing

the klr feels much better in this respect and i can undertand the coralation between the numbers given and the feel of the bike
i can manage the klr better on the gear issue and have resisted a temptation to drop one on the front as it manages slow going better than the tenere at 2nd gear lugging speeds for sure it can be managed much much better with standard gearing

stock drive on the ten is 15/45 and.... on the klr is15/43
so the final drive ratio is lower on the tenere than the klr as standard
so im guessing the difference im feeling in tracatability on the klr IE..taller gearing but more tractability ?

so some of this is down to the lower primary drive figure ?? right ??

the cumuppence of this at the seat of my pants is that the klr is better suited to duel riding than the tenere regarding the gearing ..its fine at motorway speed in stock form 70mph is fine ..more if ididnt start to burn oil..dammit
now to me im totally convinced klr is geared better for duel sport riding out of the box albeit far from ideal in the tough stuff but its a duel bike so we have to live a little with a compimise
...yet the klr is some way short of the ideal figures ??.and the tenere seems right near the money ...so im kinda confused by it all


my point here?? ..bear with me ...if the ccm had this kind of spread would it not incurr the same kind of problems i have on the bigger thumpers ... .
.I E bigger spacing between gears causing less control less lugbility viand more clutch n the tight stuff
now if my logic if flawed ..as i suspect it is ..please feel free to help me along ..i am a little out of my depth here but would love to understand it all better

it seems the ccm would need a tight first three gears and then big jump to4th and fifth to make this work well at both ends ??


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Old 05-25-2013, 05:19 PM   #170
Gryphon12
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I understand what you are saying. I'm trying to resolve it with the gearing feed-back I've heard on the DR-650 and WR250R, which I use as reference points.

I'm also going to complicate this with one more factor - Primary gearing. This is NOT the countershaft sprocket, but the gearing from the Crank Shaft to the Input Shaft on the transmission. This more than anything else affects how the resulting gear ratios affect engine rpm, and must be matched to torque output. It is also the only gear ratio on the CCM about which I know nothing.

For reference, Primary gearing is:
56:22 On the hugely over-powered Aprilia RXV/SXV 4.5/5.5 V-twin [one extreme]
74:25 On the 5-speed DR-Z400
78:25 On the 6-speed Yamaha WR250R
76:33 On the 6-speed 70* Husaberg FE570/450/390 (for all three motors), and
75:32 On a Husky TE610/TE630

I'm thinking about the spread of 1st through 5/6th on these bikes, relative to the Primary gearing, and how they behave relative to their maximum torque output.

I haven't reached any firm conclusions yet, but the wider spread on the WRR (78:25) seems to provide more "leverage" for the smaller 250, giving almost the same overall performance as the (76:33) on the TE-610/630. Both motorcycles have a similar overall gearing spread ratio (3.36 & 3.40:1, respectively), and both have reputations of being very useful as Dual Sports.

Because the CCM 450 has a 5-speed, and if we desire a "wide-spread" gear ratio (above 3.25:1), we probably need a Primary ratio of 78:25, but with a wider spread of transmission gears than the DR-Z400. The DR-Z is 2.286 (1st) to 0.864 (5th). The Yamaha WR250R is 2.643 (1st) to 0.786 (6th). The Husaberg 390 is 2.571 (1st) to 0.808 (6th), but with 76:33 primaries. If the torque of the CCM 450 will pull the gears, I think I'd like to see the spread of the Husaberg (3.18) or WRR (3.36), with the 78:25 Primaries.

There is more to designing gearing than looking at a "range" of other bikes and saying "I prefer this...", but if we can define the final performance that we would like to see, then hopefully CCM can accomodate us with both gearing and other engine parameters (cam profiles & timing / torque curve), etc. that will be suitable for our ADV riding.

I'm not sure any 450cc ADV thumper needs to run 80 mph "all day", but it should run 65 mph "all day" and 70+ mph comfortably for passing. The rest of the gears should be spread down to being useful on single track, but with the caveat of hauling a load, and not needing to be an Enduro hill climber - that's outside of MY ADV envelope.
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Old 05-25-2013, 08:13 PM   #171
Fishfund
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I certainly WANT a bike that will run 80 mph "all day" and hit 100 mph top speed for passing. I think a 450 single can make that happen.
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Old 05-25-2013, 10:03 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishfund View Post
I certainly WANT a bike that will run 80 mph "all day" and hit 100 mph top speed for passing. I think a 450 single can make that happen.
sounds like you want a street bike.
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Old 05-25-2013, 10:08 PM   #173
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sounds like you want a street bike.
+1. i suppose with the right tuning / gearing that'd be possible, but a 450 with a 5 speed? not sure about that.

my sv650 will do that pretty easily. my 450exc, not so much
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Old 05-25-2013, 10:53 PM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishfund View Post
I certainly WANT a bike that will run 80 mph "all day" and hit 100 mph top speed for passing. I think a 450 single can make that happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clapped_r6 View Post
+1. i suppose with the right tuning / gearing that'd be possible, but a 450 with a 5 speed? not sure about that.

my sv650 will do that pretty easily. my 450exc, not so much
My 450XCW will cruise at 80mph all day long and tops-out at about 108mph (15/45 & street wheels). Just rolled over 10,000 miles - most of them on-road, as it's been my primary transportation for the last few years. Longest day so far was about 550 miles, from Bend, OR to the bay area (CA). Plenty of torque to sustain 75-80mph with a pillion too, but no fat bitches. Gear spread isn't wide enough that first would be useful for any kind of technical trail riding with those sprockets though. But that's why I've got another wheelset for it.
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Old 05-25-2013, 10:57 PM   #175
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Gear spread isn't wide enough that first would be useful for any kind of technical trail riding with those sprockets though. But that's why I've got another wheelset for it.
copy that. i run 14/48 for d/s and 14/50 for more technical stuff. with 14/48 70-75 "feels" good for all day. your gearing would work good for higher speeds for sure.

i think it'd still have to be a pretty wide 5 speed though, or just a really tall OD 5th
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Old 05-26-2013, 12:45 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by jesusgatos View Post
My 450XCW will cruise at 80mph all day long and tops-out at about 108mph (15/45 & street wheels). Just rolled over 10,000 miles - most of them on-road, as it's been my primary transportation for the last few years. Longest day so far was about 550 miles, from Bend, OR to the bay area (CA). Plenty of torque to sustain 75-80mph with a pillion too, but no fat bitches. Gear spread isn't wide enough that first would be useful for any kind of technical trail riding with those sprockets though. But that's why I've got another wheelset for it.
Bend to the Bay area is a pretty good ride for an XCW-and an XCW would be my weapon of choice in SF traffic! The KTM "W's" are a pretty good reference point as they have fairly wide boxes - either 3.01 or 3.18:1.
If the CCM had a 3.5:1 box, was running at 80 mph on the slab at the same rpm as your XCW, in the technical parts it would be as if it was geared aprox 11-16% lower if I'm doing my math right. Definately helpful - though I'm not sure it would be enough.
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Old 05-26-2013, 12:58 AM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishfund View Post
I certainly WANT a bike that will run 80 mph "all day" and hit 100 mph top speed for passing. I think a 450 single can make that happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
sounds like you want a street bike.
He of course wants a bike that can jump, ride technical stuff and climb stairs in 3rd world countries as well. I know you are being fecicious Eakins... and of course if you read his ride reports (and others) its obvious why he and many want a bike that can do all these things.
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Old 05-26-2013, 01:56 AM   #178
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I'm sure it fun playing with all these numbers, and I applaud Colebatch for suggesting that you contact CCM with your gearing requests (rather than just going round and round on here)... But I fear the bottom line is that CCM are buying these [old] G450X engines in from Kymco, and they will get what they are given, initially at least.

We can all speculate how this bike is going to perform on and off road, but until Minkyhead (and anyone else who has actually ordered one) gets one, and actually rides it, it is all theory?

Don't forget that the BMW/Speedbrain G450 bikes performed perfectly well* in the Dakar, which to be honest is a pretty good test of the sort of conditions a lightweight 'Adventure' bike is going to need to perform in - 8000+kms in two weeks, long road liaisons, altitude, heat, cold, desert, mountains, mud etc etc etc.

If you are also planning to tackle really serious single-track terrain, then a fully faired/large tank adventure/rallye style bike is probably not going to be ideal anyway? - Personally I'd stick to an Enduro with a larger gas tank and call it good...

Jx

*I say perfectly well, I still have concerns about the crank-mounted clutch, but that is another tangent...
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Old 05-26-2013, 03:07 AM   #179
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+1. i suppose with the right tuning / gearing that'd be possible, but a 450 with a 5 speed? not sure about that.
Its possible ... a 450 with a wide 5 speed box, sitting at 100 mph all day...

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Old 05-26-2013, 03:16 AM   #180
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But I fear the bottom line is that CCM are buying these [old] G450X engines in from Kymco, and they will get what they are given, initially at least.
Well I wonder if Kymco just have them sitting around in stock and are giving them away for next to nothing, or if Kymco are building them up for CCM.

If the latter, then the question is how much does it cost to rejig the gearbox. Probably one day of a Taiwanese engineers time to recalc the ratios, plug the numbers into the AutoCad machine and reprogram the machine tools, which at that level I assume would be all plugged straight into the AutoCAD anyway. The cost of manufacture will be the same. - same amount of steel, same amount of machine tool time, same amount of heat treatment time / energy, same amount of assembly time. The cost is of getting a design engineer to rework the matching sets of cogs. They have a 6 speed box for the Husky, so dont have to rework selectors, or widths or anything. They have all the original drawings and measurements so nothing needs to be remeasured to make sure it fits. Biggest problem in developing aftermarket solutions is measuring up the original in 3D so you can redraw the original on a computer, before modifying it. Kymco already have all the original drawings and measurements on their CAD system. They save 80-90% of the time and effort vs an aftermarket solution.
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