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Old 01-27-2013, 06:48 AM   #76
rayder
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Subarus first got my attention with the early 80's Loyale and its' high/low 4wd transmission. Too bad they've all melted away from the salt and rust.

Then the early 90's 2.2 engine truly was bullet proof. You didn't even have to worry about the timing belt because it was a non-interference engine. The Legacys were a nice ride and I had a two wheel drive one that could get 35mpg with a little careful driving.

But in my opinion it has been down hill since then. I've had 12 different subies, seven on the road at one time, but reliability has been inversely proportional to the age of the car. We have a 2002 impreza with all the fore-mentioned problems. And they've gotten amercinized and grown huge. I think you could open the back door of a Tribeca and drive a Justy right in.

My love affair with Subaru has pretty much faded.

hey John
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Old 01-27-2013, 07:58 AM   #77
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Their styling hasn't improved, either, IMO.

The last decent looking Impreza was 2007.

With the possible exception of the Forester, I don't like the look of anything in their lineup anymore.
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:13 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SourKraut View Post
We've been noticing a switch from subaru to honda crv/toyota rav4s up here in VT. Now that the subaru is just another expensive awd that gets poor gas mileage in a crowded marketplace, loyalists seem to be jumping ship. I blame the vehicle quality but that is because I have an axe to grind with them after my 2010/2011 outbacks.
I still think that Subaru's AWD system is superior to the competition. The problem I've found is that while the AWD system is superior to other makes, most of the rest of the cars are lacking in one way or another. Especially with the interiors. Despite Honda and Toyota (IMO) making mostly boring vehicles, they're far better assembled and with better quality materials than most Subarus, so unless you're constantly driving through snowdrifts, most people will lean towards the nicer interior with better features, because that's what you see and use more often. I'd still rather have a Forester or Outback than a CRV or RAV4, but I tend to lean towards the unique.
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:23 AM   #79
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Then how do you explain Subaru's continued growth in US market share?
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Old 01-28-2013, 04:20 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by discochris View Post
I still think that Subaru's AWD system is superior to the competition. The problem I've found is that while the AWD system is superior to other makes, most of the rest of the cars are lacking in one way or another. Especially with the interiors. Despite Honda and Toyota (IMO) making mostly boring vehicles, they're far better assembled and with better quality materials than most Subarus, so unless you're constantly driving through snowdrifts, most people will lean towards the nicer interior with better features, because that's what you see and use more often. I'd still rather have a Forester or Outback than a CRV or RAV4, but I tend to lean towards the unique.
they have come quite a ways in interior features in the last 6 or 7 years. i really like their cold weather features the most, though. defrosting mirrors, defrosting wipers, heated seats, etc.
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Old 01-28-2013, 05:28 AM   #81
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NPR had a segment on Subaru and its' growing market share this morning.

They lay part of the blame on Portlandia.



Hey John
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:58 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by discochris View Post
I still think that Subaru's AWD system is superior to the competition. The problem I've found is that while the AWD system is superior to other makes, most of the rest of the cars are lacking in one way or another. Especially with the interiors. Despite Honda and Toyota (IMO) making mostly boring vehicles, they're far better assembled and with better quality materials than most Subarus, so unless you're constantly driving through snowdrifts, most people will lean towards the nicer interior with better features, because that's what you see and use more often. I'd still rather have a Forester or Outback than a CRV or RAV4, but I tend to lean towards the unique.
First off the awd system is totally different in the manual versus automatics in the subarus. The manuals still have the old(er) system but the automatics are electronic, same as crv or rav4. My manual '10/'11 outbacks still had all the electronic nanny crap that ruined snow driving, even when switched "off" which didn't totally disable the abs/stability/traction control. The interiors were junk and the 2.5 engine was not up to the task as far as I'm concerned. If you wanted to pass on the highway is was a double downshift to fourth gear, mash the gas to the floor and wait. I was in loaners for months while mine were getting warranty work and the cvt auto did better because it would wind the living piss out of it and get the passing power that was hard to find in the manual. Add in mid-20's for gas mileage and I gave up on them.
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:54 AM   #83
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Haters gona hate, but.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SourKraut View Post
First off the awd system is totally different in the manual versus automatics in the subarus. The manuals still have the old(er) system but the automatics are electronic, same as crv or rav4. My manual '10/'11 outbacks still had all the electronic nanny crap that ruined snow driving, even when switched "off" which didn't totally disable the abs/stability/traction control. /
Not exactly true. The low-end manual cars like yours have the same old viscous coupling they've had for years.

The low-end [4 speed] automatics are an 80/20 or 90/10 split (ie, drive the front wheels until slip is detected) without any locking.

Cars with the six cylinder or turbo have a five speed automatic Subarus VTD drive system. This is a significantly more sophisticated system that puts more than half the power to the rear wheels until slip is detected. Almost all of the VTD cars also have VDC - essentially four wheel electronic traction control that uses the ABS system to limit slip and help keep the thing pointed in the right direction.

I don't have a 2010 manual OBW wagon handy, but on all previous Subarus equipped with VDC, there was a button to disable it, and it was "off." On my 09 WRX it's a button on the lower left part of the dash, unlabeled other than the graphic. I usually only shut it off for autocross.

The STI has yet another drive system, with mechanical front and rear limited slip differentials and a "DCCD" - Driver Controlled Center Differential, which can vary the amount of power directed to the front and rear wheels from 90/10 to 10/90. This hardware is the primary reason the STI weighs more than the WRX.

AWD systems are all "automatic" but the Subaru systems are not like the She-RV or RAV4 systems, other than being relatively light duty AWD systems without things like locking or limited slip differentials. For one thing, the 2012+ CR-V has a more capable system than previously. RAV4 has had three different systems, some with a viscous coupling center differential, some with a clutch type center differential (like the low-end Subaru manual system) and some of each model with mechanical rear LSD. The higher-end Acura SH-AWD system does have a mechanical center differential.

http://www.awdwiki.com/en/subaru/
etc.
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garandman screwed with this post 01-28-2013 at 08:02 AM
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:35 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rayder View Post
Subarus first got my attention with the early 80's Loyale and its' high/low 4wd transmission. Too bad they've all melted away from the salt and rust.

Then the early 90's 2.2 engine truly was bullet proof. You didn't even have to worry about the timing belt because it was a non-interference engine. The Legacys were a nice ride and I had a two wheel drive one that could get 35mpg with a little careful driving.

But in my opinion it has been down hill since then. I've had 12 different subies, seven on the road at one time, but reliability has been inversely proportional to the age of the car. We have a 2002 impreza with all the fore-mentioned problems. And they've gotten amercinized and grown huge. I think you could open the back door of a Tribeca and drive a Justy right in.

My love affair with Subaru has pretty much faded.

hey John
The Loyale wagons were pretty awesome. Simple and better in the snow than the newer ones (at least I recall that)

Although my Parents had a 1992 Auto Trans one that blew up. Subaru replaced the transmission without charge.

It was the car I learned to drive in.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:09 AM   #85
SourKraut
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Originally Posted by garandman View Post
Haters gona hate, but.

Not exactly true. The low-end manual cars like yours have the same old viscous coupling they've had for years.

The low-end [4 speed] automatics are an 80/20 or 90/10 split (ie, drive the front wheels until slip is detected) without any locking.

Cars with the six cylinder or turbo have a five speed automatic Subarus VTD drive system. This is a significantly more sophisticated system that puts more than half the power to the rear wheels until slip is detected. Almost all of the VTD cars also have VDC - essentially four wheel electronic traction control that uses the ABS system to limit slip and help keep the thing pointed in the right direction.

I don't have a 2010 manual OBW wagon handy, but on all previous Subarus equipped with VDC, there was a button to disable it, and it was "off." On my 09 WRX it's a button on the lower left part of the dash, unlabeled other than the graphic. I usually only shut it off for autocross.

The STI has yet another drive system, with mechanical front and rear limited slip differentials and a "DCCD" - Driver Controlled Center Differential, which can vary the amount of power directed to the front and rear wheels from 90/10 to 10/90. This hardware is the primary reason the STI weighs more than the WRX.

AWD systems are all "automatic" but the Subaru systems are not like the She-RV or RAV4 systems, other than being relatively light duty AWD systems without things like locking or limited slip differentials. For one thing, the 2012+ CR-V has a more capable system than previously. RAV4 has had three different systems, some with a viscous coupling center differential, some with a clutch type center differential (like the low-end Subaru manual system) and some of each model with mechanical rear LSD. The higher-end Acura SH-AWD system does have a mechanical center differential.

http://www.awdwiki.com/en/subaru/
etc.
To imply that Subarus are anything but light-duty awd is not accurate. There is nothing truly unique about their "symmetrical awd" beyond marketing material and they use electronic center differentials just like the competition. Some of the higher end models use limited slip differentials but most rely on the electronic traction control, also just like the competition. Mine, with the vtd/traction/stability button off, still interfered when driving aggresively in snow no matter what the manual says. They are good in the snow but so are the competitors these days.
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Old 01-28-2013, 01:42 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SourKraut View Post
To imply that Subarus are anything but light-duty awd is not accurate. There is nothing truly unique about their "symmetrical awd" beyond marketing material and they use electronic center differentials just like the competition. Some of the higher end models use limited slip differentials but most rely on the electronic traction control, also just like the competition. Mine, with the vtd/traction/stability button off, still interfered when driving aggresively in snow no matter what the manual says. They are good in the snow but so are the competitors these days.
SourKraut
You bring up a point I've wanted to know.
I have seen the videos posted about Subaru's climbing up a ramp with rollers where other vehicles could not.
The video looks impressive.
Is it true Honda, Toyota, Ford, etc. AWD systems could not move up a slope with only 1 wheel having traction????
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Old 01-28-2013, 01:52 PM   #87
SourKraut
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SourKraut
You bring up a point I've wanted to know.
I have seen the videos posted about Subaru's climbing up a ramp with rollers where other vehicles could not.
The video looks impressive.
Is it true Honda, Toyota, Ford, etc. AWD systems could not move up a slope with only 1 wheel having traction????
I'd like to test that on a bunch of cars just for fun. The videos may or may not be legit. But sure, some vehicles will move up it just fine with the electronic traction control that they all have now. Brakes are applied automatically on the wheels without traction. Same as the subaru.

I suppose others could chime in and say that no vehicle in the world, except a subaru, can do that.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:26 PM   #88
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My '84 Subaru Brumby (Brat) now has 124,000 km on the clock. What should I be looking for regarding the head gasket problem?
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Old 01-29-2013, 05:16 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by rayder View Post
NPR had a segment on Subaru and its' growing market share this morning.

They lay part of the blame on Portlandia.



Hey John
It would be interesting to see what % of subie
owners own Apple computers compared to say Honda crv
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:38 AM   #90
garandman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SourKraut View Post
To imply that Subarus are anything but light-duty awd is not accurate. There is nothing truly unique about their "symmetrical awd" beyond marketing material and they use electronic center differentials just like the competition. Some of the higher end models use limited slip differentials but most rely on the electronic traction control, also just like the competition. Mine, with the vtd/traction/stability button off, still interfered when driving aggresively (sic) in snow no matter what the manual says. They are good in the snow but so are the competitors these days.
You said you had a 2.5 manual. You did not have VTD: you had the most basic Subaru AWD system with the clutch pack center differential, which is not "electronic." Like the cute-ute class vehicles you mentioned, it is a light duty system with open differentials if you purchased the 2.5i, the cheapest model.

In other words, you are 100% correct in having the least expensive and least capable Subaru system of the several they offer. And have moved on. Good luck.
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