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Old 02-12-2013, 02:32 AM   #1
OlivierS OP
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Location: Belgium
Oddometer: 98
Ron 95 or Ron 98 for a 990?

Had a look arround and could not find any posts about what fuel is best to run the 990 on...

I have been using Ron 98 eversince I bought the bike. Been using that in my car (a subaru) as well and never gave it a second thought.
However, when I did some maintenance last sunday and while I was looking for the right tire pressure I found a sticker that says I should use Ron 95...

I can run my car on both, so I gues the bike as well, however, as far as I know the higher the Ron the better for high reving engines, is that correct?
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:05 AM   #2
Jaimoto
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You can use 95 or higher. Some will say runing 97-98 is playing safe, some will say you're throwing your money away...
It's all about compression:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating
I never thought about it but I've been using 97 since day one.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:26 AM   #3
It'sNotTheBike
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Compression ratio is only one of many factors involved in engine "knock".


Ignition timing, fuel mixture ratio, and combustion chamber shape are among
the other factors which play into which fuel grade is safest to use. This stuff is
part science and part art, even today, and engine designers spend a lot of time
with test engines running on a dynamometer with the engine's condition and
behavior closely monitored by instrumentation, before they finalize things like
ignition timing curves and fuel recommendations. It is unwise to attempt to
"second guess" the engineers who design engines unless you have training
and experience similar to theirs. Best to just follow the manufacturer's recommendations,
which tend to be conservative for good reasons.


Generally you cannot do harm using fuel with a higher octane rating fuel than what is
recommended, though some would say this is a "waste of money". However it is worth
noting that if the engine in question has a knock sensor which will automatically retard ignition
timing when knock is detected by the sensor ( or allow the timing to remain in a more "advanced"
state when knock is absent ) your vehicle may experience better performance and / or better
fuel economy when using fuel with a higher octane rating which tends to delay the onset of "knock".
It is possible that the increase in fuel economy can more than compensate for the higher price of
the fuel which has higher octane.


If you can hear the engine "knocking" or "pinging", it is important not to continue
operating the vehicle such that the noise continues. This is because the noise
is associated with EXTREME mechanical loads being imposed on the internals
of the engine and the engine ( unless it is a diesel ) was probably not designed to
survive undamaged while running under such conditions. Best to stop and
determine why it was "knocking" and take steps to prevent such knocking before
the engine is damaged.


Last year there was a ride report posted on ADVrider by some people who rode a BMW 800
( vertical twin engine ) through South America. They got some poor quality fuel and
the engine on their bike then knocked severely ( by the account in the ride report )
and they kept riding. The engine on the bike was severely damaged such that it needed to
be either extensively repaired or replaced outright ( I forget the final outcome except that BMW
took care of them, which I thought was rather charitable on BMW's part because operator
negligence was the root cause of the damage, though in fairness the operators did not seem to
have the knowledge which would have allowed them to understand the implications of continuing
to ride with the engine knocking ).


For more insight on "knock" you can read section 12.10 in the excerpt
of the book found at the link below :


http://books.google.com/books?id=jco...page&q&f=false


.

It'sNotTheBike screwed with this post 02-12-2013 at 07:44 AM
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:04 AM   #4
OlivierS OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by It'sNotTheBike View Post
which I thought was rather charitable on BMW's part because operator
negligence was the root cause of the damage.
I used to work for a BMW car dealer, there was a client who put gasoline in his diesel X5. Car burnt out almost completely...
He figured that BMW of his insurance would pay him a new car (the X5 was brand new) , so he went allong and ordered a new one.
Off course neither of those companies felt like rewarding such stupidity, se he ended up with quite the financial hangover...

That being said, I did know the definition of 'knock' but had no clue how to write it down in english. So thank you for that :-).

As far as I know the bike ran 57 000 km's on 98, maybe it's best to keep it like that then.
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:13 AM   #5
It'sNotTheBike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OlivierS View Post
I used to work for a BMW car dealer, there was a client who put gasoline in his diesel X5. Car burnt out almost completely...
He figured that BMW of his insurance would pay him a new car (the X5 was brand new) , so he went allong and ordered a new one.
Off course neither of those companies felt like rewarding such stupidity, se he ended up with quite the financial hangover...

That's a great story

Frankly, I thought the situation which involved that BMW 800 in South
America should have had a similar outcome. Operator error is not the fault of
the manufacturer.


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It'sNotTheBike screwed with this post 02-12-2013 at 08:19 AM
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:23 AM   #6
OlivierS OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by It'sNotTheBike View Post

Frankly, I thought that the situation which involved that BMW 800 in South
America should have had a similar outcome. Operator error is not the fault of
the manufacturer.


.
True, however, it would not be good advertising for BMW's adventure bike's if word got out they can't handle some dirty fuel bought in the middle of nowhere...
So maybe it was more a marketing descision theren then common sense.

That is something that worries me for the new adventure bikes who meet the european emission standards. I wonder how those engine's will react to dirty fuel.
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:26 AM   #7
It'sNotTheBike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OlivierS View Post
True, however, it would not be good advertising for BMW's adventure bike's if word got out they can't handle some dirty fuel bought in the middle of nowhere...
So maybe it was more a marketing descision theren then common sense.

I have no doubt that you are correct, and that BMW chose to "warranty" the bike
because it was best for their marketing.



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Old 02-12-2013, 08:41 AM   #8
It'sNotTheBike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OlivierS View Post
That is something that worries me for the new adventure bikes who meet the european emission standards. I wonder how those engine's will react to dirty fuel.

I think if you ride a fuel-injected bike into areas with fuel of questionable quality,
you have to prepare accordingly, which might mean a lot of different things but
would probably involve at least carrying a few spare fuel filters. Also, some
of the newer bikes do allow choosing different ignition timing "maps" and that can
allow an engine to have a better chance to survive running on less than optimal fuel.
So I don't think newer bikes will be worthless for travel in the third world, but there
will be the potential for problems which didn't/ couldn't happen with carburetors and
the rider would be wise to prepare with this in mind ( carry a spare fuel injector,
fuel pump, etc. ). Remember, not all the cars and trucks now used in the third world
are using carburetors, and those cars and trucks are not all broken down by the side
of the road. So this at least implies that a fuel-injected bike can be used in such areas.



I think there is a strong chance that the fuel which destroyed the 800GS engine
was contaminated with diesel. Diesel fuel will cause extreme knock in a gas engine.

There is a field test which was developed by an aircraft engineer that you can perform
which will give some idea whether "gasoline" has been contaminated with diesel or
kerosene. You use an eyedropper to drop a sample of the fuel onto a clean piece of
matte-finish white paper. You then wait for the fuel sample to evaporate. After the
fuel evaporates if any oily residue remains you will then have reason to suspect the
fuel has been contaminated with diesel or kerosene. This is because uncontaminated
gas won't leave an oily residue on the paper once it has evaporated. I might choose
to perform such a test before filling my bike with six gallons of questionable fuel,
because my bike is fuel injected and cleaning the tanks and fuel system would be an
unpleasant task which would require much more time than testing the fuel.



.

It'sNotTheBike screwed with this post 02-12-2013 at 08:55 AM
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:59 AM   #9
OlivierS OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by It'sNotTheBike View Post
I think there is a strong chance that the fuel which destroyed the 800GS engine
was contaminated with diesel. Diesel fuel will cause extreme knock in a gas engine.

There is a field test which was developed by an aircraft engineer that you can perform
which will give some idea whether "gasoline" has been contaminated with diesel or
kerosene. You use an eyedropper to drop a sample of the fuel onto a clean piece of
matte-finish white paper. You then wait for the fuel sample to evaporate. After the
fuel evaporates if any oily residue remains you will then have reason to suspect the
fuel has been contaminated with diesel or kerosene. This is because uncontaminated
gas won't leave an oily residue on the paper once it has evaporated. I might choose
to perform such a test before filling my bike with six gallons of questionable fuel,
because my bike is fuel injected and cleaning the tanks and fuel system would be an
unpleasant task which would require much more time than testing the fuel.



.
That is a very good tip, I will remember that. However, not driving arround in the third world just yet :-). Well I guess it all depends what the financial crisis will do to Belgium.
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:20 AM   #10
It'sNotTheBike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OlivierS View Post
That is a very good tip, I will remember that. However, not driving arround in the third world just yet :-). Well I guess it all depends what the financial crisis will do to Belgium.

I'd trade countries with you in a nanosecond.

Here in the states, we have the financial crisis plus a government with a
tendency to invade countries which have not attacked it in order to maintain
access to resources. I could go on at length about this, but this forum is about
motorcycles :-)


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Old 02-12-2013, 09:26 AM   #11
OlivierS OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by It'sNotTheBike View Post
I'd trade countries with you in a nanosecond.

Here in the states, we have the financial crisis plus a government with a
tendency to invade countries which have not attacked it in order to maintain
access to resources. I could go on at length about this, but this forum is about
motorcycles :-)


.
Well, believe me we have quite a few idiots in the governement as well. At least you guys still have some nature area's left. For me Belgium feels like a big city.
Then again, we have better beer.
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:46 AM   #12
It'sNotTheBike
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Then again, we have better beer.

No contest on the beer, yours is real, and the mass-produced American
beer is not.

I used to brew my own beer so I know a bit about beer
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:11 PM   #13
Korruptio
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Explain to me why is it harmful to have small diesel contamination in gasoline? It can be so in aircrafts because diesel might freeze before gasoline and block something in fuel system but in motorbikes it is not likely unless you are riding in proper winter with snow and ice. And with motorbike you wont drop thousands of meters from sky if your engine stops...

Other way around I understand it (gasoline will ignite before diesel in diesel engine and destroy the engine) but having some diesel in gasoline does not blow up your engine, if something, it mostly just lubricates the fuel pump and injectors...
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:02 PM   #14
It'sNotTheBike
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Explain to me why is it harmful to have small diesel contamination in gasoline?.

Diesel fuel tends not to ignite slowly and gradually, but instead burns very rapidly
( explodes ) when it reaches sufficient temperature. Gasoline burns more gradually
and doesn't tend to suddenly combust in a short time like diesel fuel does. The
use of diesel fuel in a gasoline engine can cause detonation due to its different
burning characteristics. This detonation can, if it is extreme enough and occurs
for a long enough time period, cause severe damage to the internal parts
of the gasoline engine. The detonation produces a shock wave ( that shock wave
is what makes the knocking noise ) which can severely damage the piston,
and when that happens the fragments of the piston and piston rings which are
broken are free to move around the inside of the engine can cause mechanical damage
to the internal parts of the engine. The result is not pretty !


If there is enough diesel in the fuel supplied to a gas engine it may not even start
or run. When it gets ugly is when there is enough diesel fuel to affect the
combustion process yet the gas engine can still run. Then you get the
catastrophic detonation and if you run the engine long enough and under high
enough load, it is probable that the engine will be severely damaged such that
replacement of some or all of the engine is necessary.


Usually the detonation ( knocking ) will be loud enough that it will be easy to hear.
If you stop the engine immediately it is possible that major damage can be avoided.
But when you just keep running the engine and ignore the knocking sounds, the poor
engine doesn't have a chance.


So, a trace amount of diesel fuel used in a gas engine probably won't do
harm, and a huge amount of diesel fuel in the engine will probably cause
that engine not to run at all. But there is a zone in between those two extremes
when the engine will run and while running extreme damage can occur.



.

It'sNotTheBike screwed with this post 02-12-2013 at 07:10 PM
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:07 PM   #15
OlivierS OP
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Location: Belgium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by It'sNotTheBike View Post
No contest on the beer, yours is real, and the mass-produced American
beer is not.

I used to brew my own beer so I know a bit about beer
Honestly, some beers here are mass produced as well. Like Stella Artois for example, it is exported and brewed world wide and I do feel there is a difference in taste ( I was born in Leuven, home town of Stella ).
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