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Old 02-04-2013, 07:39 PM   #136
NJ-Brett
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Does it need to go through EPA again if you just change some gears in the transmission?


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Originally Posted by tHEtREV View Post
Serious response...

I don't know how the sales figures are in America for the DRZ, but here in Australia the DRZ is usually first or second in the sales (usually the WR450 is the one it is fighting with) so I doubt Suzuki can see a need to chainge it if it as successful in other countrys.

It would cost a shitload to replace it, and even if they updated it, they would need to get it through EPA regs and shit so that would cost a shitload to.

And the sell the RMX450 here, apparently a really good bike, but not road registerable here.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:39 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Gryphon12 View Post
RMZ-450 has an even narrower 5-speed than the DR-Z400 (2.61 to 2.65). That engine would need new cases for a new transmission, too. Wrong place to start.

Honda and Yamaha both ran 450's in this year's Dakar. Perhaps detune those motors and adjust transmission ratios for a start. Unless, of course, they are also 5-speeds. A Dual Sport in the USA must handle slow single track and highways at 70 mph. A wide-ratio 6-speed (or a dual range 5-speed) are a must for me. The XT225, WR250R and TE610/630 each have one, so it can be done. Others will sacrifice with a wider ratio 5-speed that the torque of a 650cc can pull in top gear, but that is still a sacrifice to me. And I want a 450. Just like Goldilocks, the middle size is just right - for me.
I think a 5 speed would be just fine. You may underestimate Suzuki's engineering abilities if you believe a new case is required to simply make 4th and 5th gear taller ... and perhaps 1st a hair lower. Also, much can be done with sprockets. And don't forget a healthy DRZ-S pretty much could stick with a DR650 right up to about 90 mph before running out of puff.
Been there, done it.

Yes ... it's bit busy at 75 mph ...but doable and better if geared UP. A 450 dual sport ... even the Goldilocks model ... is not going to be like your BMW on the highway.

American Suzuki have, IMO, provided flawed reports to Japan for years. They tell them what they "think" they want to hear. Problem is ... the old dead wood clogging up the cubicles in Brea are clueless, don't ride and rarely leave S. California.

The old white guys are the ones who were dead set against the Vstrom from day one. It's turned into a success. They even tried to instigate a rebellion among dealers, some refused to take the Vstrom in the first year. These are the same guys who worship at the Cruiser Alter and convinced the Japanese it's the only way forward. And sadly ... for years this has brought BIG Profits to Suzuki ... and ALL the Japanese big four. But times do change. Now, Suzuki's dual sports are doing better than ever, especially the DR650 and new DL650 Adventure.

Future?
SuzukiJapan project leaders said back in 2007 they were bringing out a "new' dual sport. Never happened. Perhaps it's simmering on a back burner somewhere?

The ONE TWO punch of 1. Bush's (world wide) depression ... and 2. Fukushima meltdown have them running scared and manning the pumps. They ALL remember the crisis of the early 80's ... which most Americans know nothing about or how close a two Japanese companies came to going totally, permanently .. UNDER. Namely Suzuki and Yamaha.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:55 PM   #138
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The ONE TWO punch of 1. Bush's (world wide) depression ... and
I thought your post was interesting until you lost me there at the end.
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:11 PM   #139
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I thought your post was interesting until you lost me there at the end.
Who cares? Almost all of them are crooks.
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Old 02-04-2013, 10:11 PM   #140
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Yup... This has been my point right along! Thank you. I've ridden my DR650 in some real gnarly stuff and we were not happy lol! But do what I've seen quite a few DR650 riders do that are in my neck of the woods - windshield(yuck), big ass saddlebags, 80/20 d/s tires, more lighting, .. viola... V strom lol!!! I love my V Strom ..The Strom makes great Street bike thats all..
Viola? What do musical instruments have to do with this discussion?

You DO realize, of course, that windshields and big ass-saddlebags can be removed in minutes and left at camp? That a front knobby can be swapped for that 80/20 tire pretty easily? That more lighting can be added to something like a DR, while still reducing weight AND wattage consumption? You've heard of this new technology called "LEDs", yeah?

Add some decent armor, like you would to any bike going offroad. Swap in appropriate springs and valving, like you would to any bike going offroad. Spoon on a set of appropriate DOT knobbies, like you would to any street-legal bike going offroad. Ride dirt. Ride slab. Commute with a duffel strapped to the fender/seat. Bomb 1000+ miles of slab, on a 35F day, to be at work the next morning. Run away from quads in tree-choked woods, on the same bike, 2 days later. Haul a passenger to Daytona Bike Week a few months later. It works fine. I put over 15K miles on my DR this year, and I have a full-time job, non-riding family members that I'm still on speaking terms with, a streetbike, and 2 cars. A good portion of that mileage is bottomless sugarsand and muddy quad trails. It works fine. But then...I'm not sponsored by Monster, and I'm not trying to be. I just like to ride.

I have touring pegs and a 45L topcase on my dirtbike right now, and it's better on long roadtrips than my streetbike.



It still runs over 90MPH in the dirt too.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:09 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
They ALL remember the crisis of the early 80's ... which most Americans know nothing about or how close a two Japanese companies came to going totally, permanently .. UNDER. Namely Suzuki and Yamaha.
The interesting thing is how Yamaha came back and really thrived compared to Suzuki. Yamaha's are the best of the big 4 these days in quality. Not to mention their R&D is at the top.
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Old 02-05-2013, 09:03 AM   #142
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Heavier and less powerful?

Nope. You're all getting weaker and fatter.
Hhahaha rofl


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Old 02-05-2013, 10:16 AM   #143
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Speaking of lighter dual sport bikes, check this out:

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Originally Posted by kayaker43 View Post
Cool thread,.. but kind of depressing regarding all the overweight bikes. I've been a weight weenie all my life and always have some kind of hybrid/custom lightweight bike. Right now I ride a plated XR650R that weighs 275 wet/no gas. I've got arthritis and carpal tunnel so even that is too much for my weak wrists these days so its for sale. because I built something lighter........

......The bike below is a modified BBR framed XR200 that used cr85 suspension and wheels. I laced up some full size trials wheels and extended the swingarm so its now the same size as an XR200 but it weighs just under 192 lbs full of gas or about 30 lbs less than the lightest 125 on the list. It has a Powroll stroker 218 motor, MX suspension and brakes and is street legal. It can embarass pretty much anything in the tight woods and with the 6 speed wide ratio trans will cruise 55 without stress. I think its the best bike Honda never built. Ironicly its 95% stock Honda parts bolted to a custom frame, something Honda could have easily done.

Plus - this bike of his is interesting. 280lbs wet, XR650 street legal: http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=813160
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:32 AM   #144
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yup there you go!

seen those over on tt...

class act that builder
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Old 02-05-2013, 11:00 AM   #145
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That is an awesome build. But it isn't even close to being street legal in Maryland not to mention what it would take for a factory to get it past DOT and EPA certification.

My MXC200 would be at or near that weight if I could strip off the turn signals, reflectors, one mirror, horn, hi/lo DOT headlight, speedometer/odometer and ran it with without a skidplate or handguards.

I am not taking anything away from that build. I love it. But, like I said, calling it street legal only works in certain states and Maryland isn't one of them. No company could build a dual sport even remotely like that.

That said:
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Old 02-05-2013, 11:05 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Grreatdog View Post
That is an awesome build. But it isn't even close to being street legal in Maryland not to mention what it would take for a factory to get it past DOT and EPA certification.

My MXC200 would be at or near that weight if I could strip off the turn signals, reflectors, one mirror, horn, hi/lo DOT headlight, speedometer/odometer and ran it with without a skidplate or handguards.

I am not taking anything away from that build. I love it. But, like I said, calling it street legal only works in certain states and Maryland isn't one of them.
I had a couple tagged XRR's, one tarded, the other DS'd. The problem is the weight is all up top, makes for a mediocre woods bike, and a mediocre tard. They handle like a truck, and it ain't the suspension, it's the frame/motor geometry. It's a great bike for blasting through the desert with the throttle pinned, but we don't have any of that here in AR.
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Old 02-05-2013, 11:08 AM   #147
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I am a little weight obsessed myself. So I totally get what he is doing. It is the whole reason I have that MXC200.

I literally agonized over adding three or four pounds with a skid plate and pipe guard. It about killed me to put a little battery in it for the turn signal flasher to work right.
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Old 02-05-2013, 11:19 AM   #148
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Quote:
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The interesting thing is how Yamaha came back and really thrived compared to Suzuki. Yamaha's are the best of the big 4 these days in quality. Not to mention their R&D is at the top.
I would disagree with this. Not much difference between all the big four. After testing dozens of test bikes the last 20 years ... I have some perspective on this.

Yamaha have done some good R&D, this is true. ... but so have Suzuki. That's why they've won so many championships over the last 10 years. Do your research. Both the GSXR's and RMX Moto bikes have done pretty well.

But all the big four are in there for a chance. They are ALL that good. Yamaha have kicked butt in Moto GP but world wide, in ALL race series I think Suzuki probably have the edge, with the R1 right up their pipe. And it's GSXR that BMW used as a model for their kick butt SS1000.

Yamaha's past partnerships are very impressive ... like building Indy Car and F-1 engines. Also partnered with Ford for a time offering Yamaha engines in Production Fords.

Suzuki is a bit weak at the moment in the USA, having just closed importation of their Korean made Suzuki Car division in the USA. But it's still in production world wide. Pretty damn good cars actually but never marketed all that well in the USA. But in emerging markets Suzuki are doing well with both cars and bikes. Yamaha do not produce a car, far as I know. Suzuki are also producing bikes world wide (like Honda) in places like China, Korea, Thailand and India. Yamaha also are doing this but not as broadly, AFAIK.

Suzuki just don't have the deep pockets of Honda or Kawasaki. (Google KHI and take a gander at the HUGE industries they are involved in). Yamaha have the music division and some other interests, but a pitance compared to Honda or Kawasaki.

IMHO, Kawasaki, if they really wanted to ... could crush everyone but Honda. But that's the LAST thing they want. They NEED the competition and welcome more players in the field. A rising tide raises ALL boats. They welcome ... and even help ... competitors like KTM, Husky and BMW. It broadens and enriches the whole motorcycle world ... which is good for all involved. That is the 100 year plan of the Japanese.
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Old 02-05-2013, 11:44 AM   #149
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What the Future Could Bring ...

There are some impressive new bikes out there now. Honda's new CRF250L and CBR250 could be a start ... but not quite there. KTM are building some impressive bikes in India (through Bajaj): a 125, a 200 and a 390 Duke. The 200 is already sold in the EU and the 390 is on the way to EU and USA!

All are standard or Super Moto style. But any of them could be converted to dual sport or adventure bikes. I'd love to see a low priced, India made, 390 dual sport from KTM. Or ... maybe a 390 Terra?

Reading reviews I'm impressed by the new Kawasaki Ninja 300. This is an all new motor, building on the previous (and ancient) Ninja 250. I thought perhaps this 300 twin could make a good dual sport or adventure bike. It's light, low and powerful. In the right chassis I believe it could be world class dual sport/ADV machine.

Build it into a beefed up KLX250S (or perhaps the KX450R?) chassis. Up grade to better suspension, stronger sub frame. Allow enough comfort for travel. Breath on the motor just a hair to get a few more HP ... and your done.

I'd love to see someone build this bike. I'm pretty sure Kawasaki will eventually upgrade their current KLX250S to a 300 motor ... but wouldn't a TWIN 300 be more interesting? I'd like to see a Dakar version with all top flight components. Kind of an evolution of the Wes Weber special. Thoughts?
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Old 02-05-2013, 12:25 PM   #150
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But I think the point is that Yamaha is really innovating and putting $$ into R&D these days whereas the other 3 are content to re-badge, re-sticker the same tired designs.

Yamaha shifted the piston position a few years back and put out the street-legal WR250. That alone is more than the other 3 have done in over a decade.

I mean Kawasaki re-designed the KLR, but many people don't consider the new design to be a success.
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