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Old 01-23-2013, 01:10 PM   #46
elsalvadorklr
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Ive wanted to restore a kx500 for a loooooong time now

not gonna happen
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:32 PM   #47
Adv Grifter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ-Brett View Post
I think emissions has a lot to do with it.
Heavy big exhausts, quiet air intakes, lean set mixtures, stuff added on like air injection, vapor recovery, water cooling to partly make for the power loss from all the above, that adds weight up high, add in some beefy long travel suspension to the weight pile.

It seems like a lot of modern dual sports are down on power from what they could produce. The vacuum carb bikes being the worst.

With the addition of cats in the exhaust, add another 20 pounds at least, for the cat and all the metal to deal with the heat.
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Originally Posted by Albie View Post
Yup emissions most definitely add weight. I'd say the stock muffler on the 690 is at least 10 lbs heavier then any aftermarket one mainly due to the cat built into it. I've probably trimmed at least 15 lbs off mine just de-EPA'ing it.
Emissions do add weight ... but if you look at Dual sports from the 70's and follow them on through the 80's you see eventually Moto Cross race technology started to "trickle down" to dual sports. Believe it of not ... this added weight.

Where?
Bigger diameter forks, longer forks, (early dual sports had comical stick figure forks!!)
Stronger, beefier frames and sub frames (BIG differences from the 70's)
beefier hubs
Bigger brake rotors
stronger (read heavier) wheels, even though most all are Alu.
Hunkier shock absorbers, heavier springs
Bigger (wider, fatter) swing arms. Early swing arms were pencil thin.

Add these elements together with the additional steel braces and brackets required to hold Smog equip cannisters ... et al ... and things add up quick.

But one could argue a bike like the KLR, XR650L or DR650 has not got appreciably heavier since their inception. The XR650L came on line around
'92 and is today unchanged. The original KLR? 1986!!! Updated in '08.
The DR650 was remodeled 100% in 1996 ... only minor changes since!

Both DR and XR-L claim dry weight of 324 lbs. Not bad. Reality is both are a bit heavier because I'm guessing weight was taken without battery in the bike ... no engine oil, no fork oil, no brake fluid ... truly dry.

But all UP wet the DR650 with FULL tank, ready to ride is just 367 lbs.
(I weighed my own bike) Not too bad. The KTM's are lighter and better handlers off road ... but how many make it past 50,000 miles? For week end warrior trail rides and short stints the Euro dual sports are pretty good. For more road touring ... the Japanese old school Hound Dogs still hold sway ... IMHO.
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:55 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by dolphins13 View Post
Very good point. If I could just step out my back door and ride or not have to ride so far to get to dirt I would probably have a 400 or 500 size instead of my 640e. But I have at least 10 miles of pissed off traffic to get thru to get there. The weight helps on the faster roads, 60 and up. My wifes xt 225 is scary in the rough traffic, I want my old kx 500 back. Oh ya and make it run longer between rebuilds. Love that scary power.

Good point!! and it is the point of many Dual sport situations today. Many of us remember when you could throw a leg over a dirtbike and be on a trail in a matter of minutes from our home. Thats not the case anymore. Either trailer your dirtbike to an area you can ride in or have something plated to do the ride there and back. If your riding 20 miles on a highway to get offroad you're not going to want a 250 or maybe even a 350 size bike let alone a 2 stroke. Yeah, been there, done that - 250 2 stroke screaming at highway speeds for 20+ miles is not fun and not the intended purpose for that bike. Then there is what a lot of people consider dual sport riding, long distance stuff. Pavement, dirt roads, some trails. I think thats where most D/S bikes fit. Now it becomes even more specific: Little pavement - lots of serious trail (KTM EXC350, 450, 500, Kawi KLX 250, Yami WR250x, Suzuki DRZ400). 50/50 - minimal trail, not overly gnarly, jeep roads, dirt roads, pavement (DR650, Honda XLR650, KTM 640 & 690, Kawi KLR 650, BMW 650) and finally - longggggg distance adventure d/s - Lots of pavement, back roads, dirt roads, maybe simple single track?? (KTM 950/990, Suzuki V Strom, BMW GS, Yamaha Tenere, Honda Transalp, Triumph Tiger). Yeah I know I forgot a few AND you have some brave souls that will insist on riding a KLR where it shouldn't go, but in my mind, this is where the division in DUAL SPORT riding is.. Last you have a BIG group of people that ride stuff like the DRZ400, KLX 250 and the new Honda XL 250 because they're cheap to own/maintain and great inexpensive transportation for work, school or get around town!
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:10 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by CJBDRdude View Post
Last you have a BIG group of people that ride stuff like the DRZ400, KLX 250 and the new Honda XL 250 because they're cheap to own/maintain and great inexpensive transportation for work, school or get around town!
Plus One
a trend towards smaller, lighter bikes is really in motion now, more so than in the last 20 years. We also see more smaller bikes among RTW riders.

Fly into India, Thailand, Colombia or Chile ... buy yourself an inexpensive 250, fit it out best you can and hit the road. Many doing this now ... even on Made In China bikes ... which apparently get better every year.

Others are picking up a used DR350, XR400, KLX250S, WR250R, KLR250 Sherpa, XR250L, XT225/250 (plus several more) ... setting them up for travel and going. Russia, Mongolia, Latin America, Africa. It's all possible ... even on a 250, or 400.
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:16 PM   #50
bobnoxious67
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Originally Posted by dolphins13 View Post
Very good point. If I could just step out my back door and ride or not have to ride so far to get to dirt I would probably have a 400 or 500 size instead of my 640e. But I have at least 10 miles of pissed off traffic to get thru to get there. The weight helps on the faster roads, 60 and up. My wifes xt 225 is scary in the rough traffic, I want my old kx 500 back. Oh ya and make it run longer between rebuilds. Love that scary power.
Meh, I'm on the other side of this one...if I only have to ride 10 miles to get to the dirt, I'm riding a 400-500 cc dirt bike with plates. Oh wait...that is my scenario
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:58 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by elsalvadorklr View Post
I read de EPA ing it meaning and Im assuming assorted smog stuff and exhaust emission stuff...but I agree 15 is a lot!
You're forgetting the 5 lbs of melted rubber and cordura from boots and pants that builds up on the thermonuclear reactor can.
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:07 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
But all UP wet the DR650 with FULL tank, ready to ride is just 367 lbs.
(I weighed my own bike) Not too bad. The KTM's are lighter and better handlers off road ... but how many make it past 50,000 miles? For week end warrior trail rides and short stints the Euro dual sports are pretty good. For more road touring ... the Japanese old school Hound Dogs still hold sway ... IMHO.
95% of dual sport owners will never ride a bike 50K miles regardless of brand. Longevity has a lot to do with how it's ridden. I doubt my DR will go 50K without at least a top end considering I didn't even get a Vstrom to make it to 50K. My Busa only made it to 36K before needing a rebuild.

The thing is, lighter, more powerful bikes are usually ridden a lot harder then heavy underpowered ones simply because most people would kill themselves if they tried to ride a bike like a DR the way they ride something like a Husky 610 or KTM 690.

I got 27K on my 690 before having to do a top end. Pretty damn good considering how hard it was ridden. There's a 690 owner with over 80K on his and it's never had anything but routine maintenance. The difference I'm sure is how they were ridden. The guy does like a 1K miles a week commuting on his.
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:40 AM   #53
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The thing that got me thinking about this topic was a 1984 XL600r for sale in my area. I liked the classic looks of this bike. Took it for a test ride. It was lower to the ground, lighter and easier to handle (tight maneuvering - not whoops etc) in the short ride than other more modern japanese 650's. The engine purred when idling. It also felt like it had more power those other 650's. Had dual carbs and found out later that those engines did produce more power than the newer ones. The other thing was the seat. Very comfortable.

The negatives - kick start, old low travel suspension and rear drum brake. It did not stop well. (But that engine - sweet!)

In doing some reading about this era of big honda singles, several owners had bought newer 650's and then went back to their XL600r's, because they liked them better.

Thanks for the comments all - good info. And, the points make a lot of sense. I think overall, dual sport bikes have improved. Brakes and suspension are huge issues. If it's the height of these newer bikes that bother some of us, we can always have them professionally lowered. I did that once to a race oriented dual sport bike. It made a significant difference feeling confident on the bike at the time.
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:44 AM   #54
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I didn't read the whole thread to see if this has been mentioned, but to me one of the best pieces of equipment they added was electric start. My first "dual sport "was a 441 victor. i'll never forget kicking that MF . ;-) I may have been the kickee as much as the kicker.



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Old 01-24-2013, 07:45 AM   #55
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I didn't read the whole thread to see if this has been mentioned, but to me one of the best pieces of equipment they added was electric start. My first "dual sport "was a 441 victor. i'll never forget kicking that MF . ;-) I may have been the kickee as much as the kicker.

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Loved this post and so true! ha!
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:51 AM   #56
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Doctor's orders for me. After having my right ankle reconstructed the surgeon said MX boots all the time and no more kickstarting. He rides and said that I am one kickback away from a broken leg (a busted ankle will likely break my leg now) and an ankle replacement. Even my little 200 two stroke can leave me limping for days if it doesn't light off on the first couple of kicks.

Since the button is the only thing keeping me in the thumper game I am a big fan.
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:22 PM   #57
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Doctor's orders for me. After having my right ankle reconstructed the surgeon said MX boots all the time and no more kickstarting. He rides and said that I am one kickback away from a broken leg (a busted ankle will likely break my leg now) and an ankle replacement. Even my little 200 two stroke can leave me limping for days if it doesn't light off on the first couple of kicks.

Since the button is the only thing keeping me in the thumper game I am a big fan.
Fortunatey, I don't have physical problems kicking any of my bikes, but if I'm dropping $7000 - $10,000 on a new dirtbike, it better have electric starting!!!! Kick starting is for backup. I bought my easy-to-kick 08 KTM 250 2 stroke because it had electric start. Yup I'm lazy and I prefer using my energy riding not kicking a bike over and over.. Loving the little red button!
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:02 PM   #58
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As I flatlander relatively new to mountain riding, I have also discovered the virtues of the button for flameouts when you really, really don't want to try balancing the bike for a kick start.
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Old 01-27-2013, 05:10 AM   #59
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As I flatlander relatively new to mountain riding, I have also discovered the virtues of the button for flameouts when you really, really don't want to try balancing the bike for a kick start.
Hey Grreatdog.. that happy button is better than a winning lotto ticket if you're stuck on a scary hillside!!
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Old 01-27-2013, 05:48 AM   #60
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The weight has climbed for a few reasons. Estart, emissions crap, water cooling, more instrumentation, bigger/better brakes, beefier frames, etc. The thing is that "diets" are pretty simple. Shedding 20lbs from a modern dual sport is damn easy. Funny thing is that even with the added weight most new DS bike "feel" lighter than their older counterparts since they have their weight distributed much more intelligently.

Power? That's easy too. Tuners, exhaust, big bore kits..... I don't see anything missing from the new market but I do see a ton of pluses.





Another poster mentioned engine longevity of the small cc bikes. My KLX300r (plated) is on it's way to 50k miles this year. It currently has a bit over 42k on the clock and is still running strong.
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