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Old 01-27-2013, 08:46 AM   #31
luckygrownup
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Statistics are fun. According to the hurt report, "Roadway defects (pavement ridges, potholes, etc.) were the accident cause in 2% of the accidents; animal involvement was 1% of the accidents." So, you can say a big Duel sport is safer.If you want to be safer on a motorcycle don't drink and ride: "Almost half of the fatal accidents show alcohol involvement." according to Hurt.

Here are some interesting stats from Hurt:
Weather is not a factor in 98% of motorcycle accidents.
Intersections are the most likely place for the motorcycle accident, with the other vehicle violating the motorcycle right-of-way, and often violating traffic controls.
The median pre-crash speed was 29.8 mph, and the median crash speed was 21.5 mph, and the one-in-a-thousand crash speed is approximately 86 mph.
Motorcycle riders between the ages of 16 and 24 are significantly overrepresented in accidents; motorcycle riders between the ages of 30 and 50 are significantly underrepresented. Although the majority of the accident-involved motorcycle riders are male (96%), the female motorcycles riders are significantly overrepresented in the accident data.
The motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents.
More than half of the accident-involved motorcycle riders had less than 5 months experience on the accident motorcycle, although the total street riding experience was almost 3 years. Motorcycle riders with dirt bike experience are significantly underrepresented in the accident data.

The best way to find the safest motorcycle is go to an insurance company and look up the rate for different bikes.

My bike insurance rates:
2002 BMW R1150 RTP $130/year ( Insurance says this is a safer bike.)
2013 BMW R1200 GSA $350/year ( Insurance says my duel sport is 3 times less safe than my Touring bike. Since I ride this one about 3x faster, this may be true. )
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:03 AM   #32
DAKEZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aj Mick View Post
Safety is not about the bike, but about riders being aware of their surroundings, and riding within limitations of the bike they are using.
The Nut holding the bars is what makes a bike safe or dangerous.
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:24 AM   #33
Racersteve
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"Safer", you say, while discussing motorcycle riding, well, ok, as most non-riders would say we're crazy for riding AT ALL!
I think 4 things keep us "safe": Perception, Throttle, and way down the list Steering and then Brakes. Anticipating what is going to happen will prevent you from needing most panic reactions. The throttle on a fast bike in the fast lane keeps you ahead of everything behind you, and most vehicles changing lanes into you. Marginally, you could steer away from some problems, but reaction time, traction and available clear road will limit you. Finally, the almighty brakes, what they will do is lock up for most riders and drop you into the problem you are trying to avoid, hopefully at a reduced speed. No, give me the brains to see what might happen, and the throttle to avoid it. Unfortunately, as my passenger wife said on her first ride------- "I don't feel as safe on this (KLR) as your big (ZRX1200) fast bike." THAT'S perception!

Racersteve screwed with this post 01-27-2013 at 09:26 AM Reason: Spelling
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:28 AM   #34
markk53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
Lighter/easier to maneuver isn't really right. A sports bike has, due to its harder suspension, the better maneuverability at least on even pavement.

Don't bet on that. Every dual sport and especially supermoto test I've ever read will comment on how these bikes can shock a sportbike rider when it comes to tight winding roads. I've actually experienced that when riding with sportbike riders, when there is no window for sheer speed and acceleration the dual sport can put the hurt on a sportbike. That's also why the term "urban assult vehicle" often comes up in those articles too. They're just REALLY maneuverable... If you learn to trust the tires and don't run the DOT knobbies or squarish trials tires. I can lean far enough to scrape a toe on a peg that is about 10" off the ground when sitting upright.
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:32 AM   #35
markk53
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Originally Posted by ray h View Post
I don't think theere has ever been a statistical breakdown of particular bike types. I'm sure insurance companies have done similar things based on cc though.
I believe, as a previous poster said, it comes down to how you ride it. Stay within your capabilities and the bikes capabilities and neither would be more or less dangerous.

I would tend to say there has been breakdown. That is why a 600 sportbike is far more expensive to insure than a 650 dual sport. Same with a 1000 sportbike versus a 1200-1800 cruiser or tourer. Of course the cost of crash damage comes into play as well. The insurance industry has the numbers I am sure.

Still as you and I agree, it is the rider that makes safety. I could ride a current 600 or 1000 supersport and be far less likely to get into an accident than most new riders of any age or a 20something rider with experience (one due to newness, the other due to that immortality of youth).
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:36 AM   #36
Idle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikem9 View Post
Do you feel you are statistically safer, or less safe when you ride a (650cc or less thumper) dual sport bike vs. other types of more powerful streetbikes (sport bikes, sport touring bikes, cruisers, Big Adventure bikes etc)?

Let's take rider differences out of the equation and pretend that we are only comparing one person at a time on one type of bike vs. the other type. And that one person's tendencies on one type of bike vs. the other.

650cc or Less Thumper with 50/50 tires:

Pros:
Sit up higher
Easier to be seen
Better vision
Lighter and easier to maneuver
Typically enjoy riding at slower speeds than other bigger bikes, so you generally ride slower on the street.
Bike is slower - less likely to get into trouble by brief lack of judgement with the throttle
Better handling if the road is very rough or you have to quickly go off the road.

Cons:
Blown around by wind
Less passing power
Less power to blip out of danger.
Brakes
Pavement tire grip

I ride a Husaberg 650 supermoto, the cons are... Let me get back to you on that

Blown around by wind; Even passing semi trucks on the freeway, I don't have a problem. I get some movement, but it's predictable. I have firm suspension resprung and revalved for my weight. My bike is very stable at snails pace or breakneck speed.

Less passing power; My bike will out accelerate many bikes from 0-60mph.

Less power to blip out of danger; ^^

Brakes; front 320mm with radial 4 pot caliper with great feel, and strong engine breaking aswell.

Pavement tire grip; I've got 17" rain tires.



One other pro for dualsports is you don't have to ride with your hand on your hip. It has to be safer holding both grips.
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:38 AM   #37
markk53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gundy View Post
Speed kills.
My father was a traffic control engineer for Ohio, viewing the reports of virtually every accident on a state or US route within the division of ODOT under his supervision.. One time he actually said to me. "Speed doesn't kill, failure to yield right of way and failure to control does."

He was pointing out that most of the accident reports he viewed had consequences less due to speed than due to either of the two other reasons. Even in the Hurt Report from USC back in the 80s the median speed was something like 25 mph in the accident reports that they accumulated in the study.. Most accidents don't involve truly hazardous speed unless you consider the speed limits or less to be hazardous.
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:45 AM   #38
markk53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikem9 View Post
I think that is a very true point, but I'm trying to ask the question based on what you consider to be typical human behavior. Do you think you would stay equally within your capabilities and that of the bike no matter what type bike you are riding? Or are you more likely to engage in actions on one bike vs. the other which would make you more or less safe?

For instance, I'm much more likely to go a good deal faster on my Bandit than my KTM Exc, (except maybe in tight twisties) mainly because I feel more comfortable doing so. I'm also much more likely to pass cars in all types of situations on my Bandit because I feel more comfortable with the power of that bike. Will the slower speeds and less passing risks on the KTM overcome it's handling shortfalls in the safety equation? Hmmm, I don't know.

Just an interesting topic to think about.

I do feel that for an inexperienced rider, a dual sport is probably a safer choice - as he's gaining experience and hours. The mistakes made with throttle, clutch and braking control can be potentially less severe. Also, he can take that dual sport and get dirt experience, which is pretty well proven to help his personal statistics.

Interested in your thoughts.
Human behavior, not the bikes.

I've seen people crash out on mopeds that would do the same on a bike. Scary part... they get driver's licenses for CARS!

One kid I knew crashed his custom standing on the seat doing wheelies. The back wheel droppind into a recessed manhole - just enough to flip the bike past the balance point.

One thrityish rider I knew still has his VFR;700 with like 90 K on it with no crashes. One kid had the one CBR600F (87, first year) that had not been down after I think around 10 years.

It's all behavior, not the bikes.
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:53 AM   #39
LetItRoll
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Quote:
2002 BMW R1150 RTP $130/year ( Insurance says this is a safer bike.)
2013 BMW R1200 GSA $350/year ( Insurance says my duel sport is 3 times less safe than my Touring bike. Since I ride this one about 3x faster, this may be true. )

I like all those accident stats, lots of good info there. No question defensive and sober riding will reduce your risk more than any other available options. In the example above the insurance company is not directly saying the dual sport is 3x less safe, they are saying on average they pay out or expect to pay out 3x more on the one bike vs the other, that could be from the number of accidents, or more likely in this case from the difference in book value of the 2, when accidents do occur, no matter how much damage to the 2002 they will just total it and pay $3k or whatever book is down to now (being 11 years old). It would be interesting to see accident data by brand, BMW riders in general usually seem to have good protective gear, more likely to be middle aged responsible type, etc. That is how it seems from what I see where I live, not sure if that holds up nationally or if it is just imagined on my part. RIDE SAFE!
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:57 AM   #40
chazbird
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OK, to reframe the situation: for a rider of equal skills, knowledge and abilities would a dual sport be safer in a particular riding environment (e.g. beat up urban streets) compared with another rider of equal skills, knowledge and abilities on another type of bike (e.g. cruiser/sport bike)? In such a comparison, if a cruiser or sport bike were ridden at the same speed over the same surfaces - the beat up urban streets or broken pavement of a windy rural secondary back roads - I'd say a dual sport is potentially safer. Maybe the cruiser can ride the same speed over the same surface as a dual sport that day, or maybe always, but their workload in doing so is going to be higher, and higher workload usually leads to errors.
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Old 01-27-2013, 11:46 AM   #41
Wraith Rider
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Originally Posted by Racersteve View Post
Finally, the almighty brakes, what they will do is lock up for most riders and drop you into the problem you are trying to avoid
Than "most riders" (you?) should learn how to fucking brake.
It's by far the most important emergency action and thus has to work without a thought. In fact my mantra is: In doubt brake.
After you had time to think about it you can still stop braking and do every other thing you wish at a lower speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Idle View Post
Less passing power; My bike will out accelerate many bikes from 0-60mph.

Brakes; front 320mm with radial 4 pot caliper with great feel, and strong engine breaking aswell.
See, since passing regularily involves speeds of 75...85mph and in the worst case dumb accelerating cages, you have less passing power.

By the way, your better acceleration/braking than "many other bikes" might be rotational acceleration when you flip over backwards or forwards due to your high center of gravity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
Don't bet on that. Every dual sport and especially supermoto test I've ever read will comment on how these bikes can shock a sportbike rider when it comes to tight winding roads.
Could you link such a test? I know exactly one test that compares dual sport (KTM Duke 690 as a very street oriented version of dual sports and BMW R1200GS as a heavy version of dual sports) bikes to sports bikes and nakeds. And with "compare" I don't mean bullshitting about "oh how light it is... I'm going circles around xy", I mean real empirical data. The German magazine "MOTORRAD" did two tests, a slalom parcours with really NO place for accelerating, a thing that just doesn't exist on real roads, and an obstacle-avoidance maneuvre like the elk test.
Winner in the slalom were - of course - a sports bike and - surprisingly enough - the Triumph Street Triple, third the Duke (street tires), fourth another sports bike and then loooong way after the other bikes. And know what? All of them didn't do well because of too soft suspension, even the Duke was said to could have done better with harder suspension!
In the avoidance test the GS was on par with the sports bikes and the Triumph, but the duke fell behind and again the others followed a looong way after. Again the reason was too soft suspension, only the GS befitted from its telelever system.

After all I'd bet on it.
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Old 01-27-2013, 04:34 PM   #42
Racersteve
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"Than "most riders" (you?) should learn how to fucking brake.
It's by far the most important emergency action and thus has to work without a thought. In fact my mantra is: In doubt brake.
After you had time to think about it you can still stop braking and do every other thing you wish at a lower speed."

I just LOVE when posters get personal. Avoiding an emergency situation will keep you alive, keeping your bike away from problems is best. Brake all you want, but waiting to HAVE to do so will eventually catch up with you. The topic was "safer on a dual sport?" Most dual sports lack significant throttle response, hence must rely on perception, steering and brakes.
No one is suggesting you gas a sport bike when you are about to rearend someone, but keeping a clear area around you is much more easily done when you command horsepower. I stay away from crazy drivers, and can accelerate in an instant the moment I perceive a car changing lanes into my path. Braking in that situation subjects me to being rear ended, and doesn't put the lane changer behind me where he belongs. Sorry, throttle control, and horsepower make sport bikes safer, assuming the rider is competent, and takes real speed efforts to the track, and not on the street!
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Old 01-27-2013, 05:06 PM   #43
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There was the time I was riding a supermoto and some idiot in a car decided to pass the car in front of him, heading in the opposite direction I was. Small two lane road. No shoulder. I was forced off the road into a ditch. If I was on a heavier bike with less suspenion travel I don't think I would have been able to ride it out. If the bike had knobbies on it, it would have been fun.
On the other hand if I was a larger more visable bike maybe the driver of the car would have seen me before passing the other car.
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Old 01-27-2013, 05:24 PM   #44
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No, my 950 sits higher than any thumper I've seen and unlike the 650's can actually get out of it's own way and has a suspension evolved beyond the 80's.
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Old 01-27-2013, 06:06 PM   #45
tenfiddy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
The 650 Dual Sports are certainly easier to keep under a 100mph.
What he said! I don't get comfortable on my APE until the clock reads 100.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gundy
Speed kills.
No it doesn't. Stopping suddenly does.
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