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Old 11-21-2014, 10:42 PM   #1
BCKRider OP
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Market hunting deer

I read with great interest the article in the November ON by Dr. Lee Foote on motorcycle-deer collisions. While I question some of his statistics (over a million deer hit in the US in 2010 but only 200 human deaths means there was only one human death per 5000 collisions.) Hard to believe, but maybe true. Dr. Foote also notes that 70% of the deaths were motorcyclists, which I well believe, as we are much more vulnerable than in our cars, though we represent a small percentage of people on the road and our average distance driven per year is lower than car or truck drivers.

BTW, 2010 may be the latest year available for statistics on deer crashes, but my best guess is that they have at least doubled at this point in time, late 2014, and maybe have quadrupled.

Another statistic worth noting: deer collisions increased TEN TIMES between 2008 and 2010 though miles driven increased only 2% in the US. Why? "Thank protection, agricultural foods and predator removal." He is right, I believe, though he forgot to mention that every year there are fewer deer hunters.

As motorcyclists, we would like to have the deer population reduced to maybe 25% of what it is now. While riders are small percentage of the US or Canada drivers, there are a lot of people who no longer think of deer as the loveable Bambi. Not just the people who have hit deer with their cars and paid the deductible then seen their insurance rate go up. Tons of people have seen their gardens decimated, not only in rural areas but even in towns, by deer.

The solution? Well, we are not going to decrease agricultural foods and we are not going to re-introduce deer predators in meaningful numbers. Nor are we likely to increase the number of amateur hunters. I think the solution is market hunting by people who are capable of passing tests in firearms safety with clear instructions of which deer to shoot (which I think should be does and fawns.) They also must know how to field-dress and skin a deer. Then we need butcher shops that will hang them and butcher them. Done properly, venison is gourmet food!

Too many deer are clearly a problem, and not just for riders. Love to hear your responses.
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Old 11-22-2014, 12:24 AM   #2
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On one hand I can certainly see the value of allowing market hunting. Right now most farmers get damage permits to kill a very large number of deer. Since they are not allowed to sell the meat some opt to simply dispose of the carcasses en mass. It's a horribly wasteful process. If they were allowed to sell that meat they wouldn't just bury it instead.

On the other hand in the rural area I live deer populations on public land are not nearly as heavy as they are on private land. I could easily see market hunting of public lands quickly bringing deer populations down too far. Not too mention the inevitable argument about individuals profiting from the taking of animals on public property.

Then there is the whole specter of what happens when you bring money into the equation of wild game management. The US government has done this before with bounties for species it wanted controlled and they ended up being endangered, and then federally protected, neither of which is a good outcome and expensive to correct.

We live in changing times where an ever increasing portion of the population is separated from the natural world and the natural order of the prey/predator relationship. Many private property owners where deer over population problems exist are anti-hunting (as they chow down on store bought meat). Others simply don't want to risk damage to their property, or to be sued in this crazy world where you can be sued for allowing someone use your property if they get hurt or hurt someone else.

Market hunting is not an optimal solution from my viewpoint. History has shown it to have a lot of pitfalls. If someone wants to make a business of producing meat they can ranch.

Since most governments seem so bent on social engineering it would be nice if they pushed a bit harder to have our youth taught early on to recognize our place in the food chain and taught to embrace it. It would put hunting in a better light if so many didn't view it as a "sport" and instead viewed it as a natural function of being a part of the human species. Our success at becoming "civilized" has distanced us from our place in nature. Way too may people really think meat comes from the grocery store and never consider it's real source in any sort of intellectual way.
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Old 11-22-2014, 02:16 AM   #3
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I've hit two deer on bikes. Rather, one deer hit me {ran into the side of me} and T-boned the other.

I also hunt and while I understand your point,,,, I think it's about as realistic as PETA managing the population with birth control. No, it's not a stupid, idiotic idea like the PETA peckers,,,,,,, problem is that it's a good idea that would work but I doubt you could talk anyone into it. Regular hunters wouldn't go for it as it would make it harder to get game. PETA peckers would turn inside out and shit bricks. I'm even betting that the state DNR agencies wouldn't go for it.

Better yet,,, just run a "catch and release coyote program.

Seriously though,,,, coyotes have become a major contributing factor is the decrease in deer populations in Georgia to the point where many are asking for a bounty being put on the invasive species. Long time rumor is that the DNR actually introduced them but I'm not too big on that conspiracy theory. I do know that bounties do work and whether you get 10$ per 'yote tail of for each "good" deer carcass delivered to a butcher,,,, they work.

I'm all for bounties on coyotes in Ga. and pythons and boas in Fla, but not so much for deer in most places.
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Old 11-22-2014, 07:31 AM   #4
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There is a $70 bounty on Coyotes in Utah, none in Idaho. I know someone who is killing them in Idaho and driving to Utah for his prize.

Not ME!

They are treated as a varmint in these parts.

I've only ever spun a bamby deer with the motorcycle (this fall) where it missed my rear tire and spun like a top as witnessed by some kids in a car behind me. I have hit a few with cars/trucks though.
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Old 11-22-2014, 07:55 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCKRider View Post
[INDENT Not just the people who have hit deer with their cars and paid the deductible then seen their insurance rate go up. [/INDENT]
If your insurance company raises your rate for a deer strike then its time to shop for a new insurance company.

Now, if you swerve to avoid the deer and wrap your car around a tree or other stationary object, that is a different story. Then it is considered a single vehicle crash and your rates might just go up.

I'd say in a cage, better to just keep off the brakes (to keep the front end up) and plow through that big forest rat!
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Old 11-22-2014, 08:41 AM   #6
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deer's primary predator decimated the population 100 or so years ago (man, just like the buffalo population and wild turkey population)

but thru management, the herd is back, too much so in areas that it is not practical to hunt.

but, in my area, I am more concerned with turkeys , only reintroduced 40 years ago, the program has been successful, now you never know when 2 dozen of them will wander out in front of you or an individual turkey and of course, they only fly just high enuf to be dangerous and knock you off your bike

I notice that DOTs aggravate the deer problem on highways by planting deer attracting forage in the medians of highways, at dusk and dawn , deer traveling to and from the pasture that has been cultivated for them in the median

It could be worse, ya just don't see moose at all at night, no shiney eyes staring into your headlights
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Old 11-22-2014, 08:41 AM   #7
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Most of our family vehicles have hit deer, or had the dumb things run into the side. I had a doe kill herself by sticking her head in the front left wheel well of a Ford Escape while I was doing about 50 mph. I killed one with a Ducati ST2 and somehow stayed up. So I'm all for shooting as many as you can, because the numbers have gotten so high in our area and there are few predators.

However, food production is another matter. If I hunt in where I know the farm, deer meat is fine. But chronic wasting disease (CWD) and rabies are real issues. Deer will drink from any polluted stream or waste run-off pond. A lot of hunters aren't careful enough to make absolutely sure they cut away enough meat to ensure that every lead bullet fragment is removed. Meat can carry so many contaminates and bad things that I really think it would be wrong to harvest deer for general consumption.
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Old 11-22-2014, 08:47 AM   #8
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Here where I live in suburban Rochester Hills Michigan, 2 or 3 years ago the number of deer/vehicle incidents was the highest
in the state. Not sure if that still holds true now, but there are still A LOT of deer roaming around the neighborhood raiding
gardens and being a traffic safety issue.

At that time it was decided to send out sharp shooters from the county sheriff to cull some of the deer herd and donate the
venison to soup kitchens. Of course it did not last very long at all because PETA stepped in and put a halt to a perfectly reasonable
solution. Over the last decade or so, more coyotes have made their way into the urban environs of southeast Michigan, but
I have not seen, heard nor read of any substantial impact they may have had on the deer population around here.

More recently, the wolf population in Michigan has increased to the point of hunting them being debated. But that is in the
more northern forested parts of the state. I'm pretty sure they've had some impact on the deer populations up there. Anyway,
I've never heard of wolves (or elk) being a traffic problem like deer, bears, coyotes, wild turkeys and turkey vultures (especially
around existing road kills) and the other smaller animals in Michigan, including domesticated animals as well.

Really, PETA and the like need to be told the realities. For human safety and the well being of an overcrowded deer herd, reasonable
culls need to be done from time to time whether they like it or not. Not allowing stewardship of responsible wildlife management
is just not just irresponsible, it can be cruel.
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bandito2 screwed with this post 11-22-2014 at 08:53 AM
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Old 11-22-2014, 09:48 AM   #9
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As I type this I would love to be riding but, the rut is on and the Good O' Boys are running dogs hunting deer; thus, the deer are running flat out across the highways of Virginia. I've had far too many encounters to push my luck any farther on the Second Saturday of Gun/Dog Deer Season during the rut. Yesterday I rode and saw one doe running flat out, today is not the day to ride, at least where I live.

BKCRider you have a great idea but it will never happen too much politics when it comes to bambi.
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Old 11-22-2014, 03:21 PM   #10
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I am all for increasing the hunting season duration in a measured approach. Start by increasing the hunting season 1-2 weeks at a time until the deer population decreases in a predictable manner, and then stabilizes at a number that biologists can agree is sustainable. As has been stated here, deer have few natural predators to the point where the deer population is 5 fold greater than it was in 1900. They are a real and present danger to motorcyclists and everyone else in motorized vehicles. It would be a win/win/win situation. Highway users would be safer, hunters get more opportunities to practice their sport, and the remaining deer population becomes more healthy.
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Old 11-22-2014, 06:02 PM   #11
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Decrease in natural predators is just one aspect of the problem. Back in the old days, people hunted for food, not so much these days. Also, think i read that the deer population is a big as when white man arrived here, don't know if that is 100% correct.
Another factor is there are many areas that deer adapt and thrive where there is no chance in hell of hunting taking place. Some land owners (small gentleman farms) think deer are cute and fun to watch, never realizing the impact their harboring and protecting the deer has.
Educating landowners and others as to the reality of what is healthy for the deer and the property owner would serve all better. Let me elaborate on that a little. In areas that have no hunting allowed and good deer habitat, the herd actually has a unhealthy cycle of nature. The herd becomes unbalanced (too many deer) and disease that would not normally come into the herd shows up. There are many of these gentleman farms, golf communities, etc. etc. that need limited hunting badly.

It is better for both the deer and us humans to have a small healthy herd than a herd that is big and unhealthy. Oh but they are cute to see in our back yards every day.
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Old 11-22-2014, 06:48 PM   #12
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Also, think i read that the deer population is a big as when white man arrived here, don't know if that is 100% correct.

I think I saw that it was actually a higher number of deer know than when Columbus hopped off the boat due to much better habitat for deer {read,,,,, farming}.
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Old 11-22-2014, 08:10 PM   #13
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..

I did a quick search. It seems some sources say that in 1900 there were about 500,000 deer in the US, but, other sources' estimates are as high as 12,000,000. The present day population estimates run from 15,000,000 to 30,000,000. When Europeans first came to america there "might" have been as many as 50,000,000. I have no idea how anyone could know the number for that time period.

Regardless of what the real population numbers are, the current number of tags sold per year, plus the estimated number of illegally taken deer, combined with road kill and natural death, still will not reduce the population. More deer are born each year than die.

There are far more trophy hunters than meat hunters. Many will not shoot unless they are getting antlers. Unless and / or until there is more incentive to hunt female deer, the population will continue to grow.

I think over populated areas should require one or two does killed by a hunter before he/she is permitted a tag for a Buck.

To answer the original question, I would not be opposed to market hunting under strict processing rules, but I can't imagine it ever happening.

I totaled a mini van a few years back when I hit a young buck during the rut. I never saw him before contact. It was as if he fell out of the sky. He came from my left on an interstate that was divided by a concrete barrier higher than the bottom of the door window.

The following link will take you to an interesting article.

http://www.actionbioscience.org/biod...ty/rooney.html

..
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Old 11-22-2014, 09:28 PM   #14
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..

There are far more trophy hunters than meat hunters.
..
sure, hunters go for the trophy, that does not mean they are not meat hunters or that the meat gets thrown away
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Old 11-22-2014, 11:10 PM   #15
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There are far more trophy hunters than meat hunters. Many will not shoot unless they are getting antlers. Unless and / or until there is more incentive to hunt female deer, the population will continue to grow.

I think over populated areas should require one or two does killed by a hunter before he/she is permitted a tag for a Buck.
Trophy hunting gained a lot of popularity in 19th century Europe. A sport of Nobles. I suspect in many ways it took hold the same way that painting beautiful wood furniture and home trim did. To hunt as a sport was to demonstrate one was a person of means. To paint over beautiful woodwork had the same basis. Both a bit odd in a way.

However the desire to kill only the males of a species of prey has much more to do with the desire to protect the resource than to gain a trophy. Game management laws have traditionally revolved around protection of the females of a species harvested for food or trophies in an effort to protect the resource. Decades of this line of thought take time to change. It's a social engineering issue. It's hard to say "killing females is bad" for generations and then flip-flop on the subject. Most gun seasons still limit the days females of a species are allowed to be harvested. Only very recently are game managers finally opening up more "either sex" days in areas where there is a lot of pressure to reduce the deer population.

I know a lot of hunters that appreciate a fine specimen, yet the vast majority I know are primarily meat hunting and will take what nature and circumstances provide. Not sure what your "There are far more trophy hunters than meat hunters" statement is based on. You live in or near a city? Most everyone I know where I live eats wild game, at least occasionally.
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