ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-10-2013, 02:54 PM   #61
MotoMind
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Location: Oakland, CA
Oddometer: 1,267
Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoMind View Post
It also started getting motor overspeed errors and killing all power on the highway. Something about that failure mode rubs me the wrong way. Standard motorcycles are perfectly happy to blow themselves up if you ask them to, and won't endanger you based on a bad sensor reading.

On the upside, we both had nerdgasms about having the factory diagnose it by reading the system logs he emailed over.
I wanted to follow up on this. The manufacturer flew an engineer out with a suitcase full of spares, and he replaced the motor. The issue was related to a function in the bike that's analogous to the rev limiter on a normal motorcycle. It is possible on a normal motorcycle for the revs to be picked up incorrectly, resulting in the same type of failure. So my comments on the failure mode above are unfair.
MotoMind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 06:09 AM   #62
Yossarian™
Deputy Cultural Attaché
 
Yossarian™'s Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: the 'Ha
Oddometer: 9,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by fallingoff View Post
my brother law in the states about 10 years ago

he is a scientst

was starting a company

where you pull up at a gas st

and changed ur electrolite

ie pump in and out with the old

just a thought
That must have been based on the standard lead-acid type of battery.

Those particular batteries are not used in today's electric vehicles, for a variety of reasons; low energy density relative to weight is one of the reasons.
__________________
Successfully surviving motorcycling since 1976.
Yossarian™ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 11:36 AM   #63
PhilB
Beastly Adventurer
 
PhilB's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Location: New Hampshire
Oddometer: 1,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by VxZeroKnots View Post
What if there was an infrastructure to swap battery packs and they were drop out/plug in style. It'd certainly be easier on a car but it seems like a lot of the naysayers are being rather short sighted here.
That would require either (a) that each station stock packs for every EV on the market, or (b) that the government standardize the packs, require all EVs to use the same packs, and thus stymie further development of them. Both of which are very bad ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VxZeroKnots View Post
queue the comments about how electric vehicles have emissions because the power plants do. yawn.
It's a valid point, in a mostly coal-fueled country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfurf View Post
It's hilarious to me how uncreative people are about imagining the future. Yes, we'll obviously NEVER have practical electric motorcycles because of the current limitations of existing e-bikes and our infrastructure.

I don't envision e-bikes replacing ICE bikes for long-distance riding but I imagine that inexpensive (to own AND operate) electric motos will be VERY useful to urban commuters all over the world. Once governments and the greater public start realizing the advantages of them, they will lose the association with "biker culture" and start being viewed the way carpooling and small 50cc scooters and bicycle lanes are -- just ways to reduce traffic congestion, smog, noise pollution and lack of parking space. The advantages of them are just impossible to ignore.
Most of us are not saying that electric motorcycles will never be useful or practical. What we are saying is that they will become useful and practical enough to make a real difference in our overall transportation picture when (and only when) the problems of electricity storage are solved by about an order of magnitude better than they are today.

I am further saying that this solution is extremely unlikely to involve batteries. Huge capacitors may be a solution. Fuel cells and decent hydrogen storage (say, carbon nanotubes or some other matrix storage that operates at reasonable temperatures and pressures) may be a solution. Yes, this could happen. UNTIL it happens, EVs are a niche product that will make little dent overall in this country's energy usage patterns.

PhilB
__________________
1993 Ducati M900 Monster "Patina" (228,000 miles, so far) -- 1995 Ducati M900 (wife's bike) -- 1972 Honda CB450 (daughter's bike) -- 1979 Vespa P200 (daughter's scoot) -- 1967 Alfa Romeo GT Jr. (1300cc) -- 1964 Vespa GS160 (160cc 2-stroke) -- 1962 Maicoletta scooter (275cc 2-stroke) -- 1960 Heinkel Tourist 103A1 scooter "Elroy" (175cc 4-stroke)

PhilB screwed with this post 02-11-2013 at 11:44 AM
PhilB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 03:33 PM   #64
Lion BR
I'd rather be riding
 
Lion BR's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Oregon
Oddometer: 3,357
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Smallberries View Post
I just don't see this technology taking off in the US anytime soon. The big polluted Chinese cities have millions of electric scooters today. That makes perfect sense. The battery gets you to/from work and you carry it up to your apartment to charge at night. Someone can make their fortune with these over there as a step up in performance.

But what US motorcycle segment wants them?
Harley riders? don't think so
Dual-sport or adventure riders: not enough range, don't want to be left in the woods
GoldWing see-the-US types? range and payload issues
Sport bikers?

Perhaps that would be a good angle. Leverage the massive torque and the Isle of Man thing to make a great sport bike. I don't think range is a major concern for these guys. But now you have to compete with a BMW S1000RR at $14 grand. It would be tough to get the motor/battery/weight equation right at that price.

I wouldn't bet my life savings investing with these guys.
I believe the suggestion mentioned by the other poster was not about competing with current motorcycle segments as you mentioned. But that there could possibly be a new two-wheel segment, where people enter the motorcycle market via electric motorcycles. Small ones at that.
__________________
Whenever we are riding, we are an ambassador to our sport

I'd rather be riding!


Lion BR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 04:01 PM   #65
VxZeroKnots
Beastly Adventurer
 
VxZeroKnots's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Location: Durango CO
Oddometer: 2,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
That would require either (a) that each station stock packs for every EV on the market, or (b) that the government standardize the packs, require all EVs to use the same packs, and thus stymie further development of them. Both of which are very bad ideas.

It's a valid point, in a mostly coal-fueled country.

Most of us are not saying that electric motorcycles will never be useful or practical. What we are saying is that they will become useful and practical enough to make a real difference in our overall transportation picture when (and only when) the problems of electricity storage are solved by about an order of magnitude better than they are today.

I am further saying that this solution is extremely unlikely to involve batteries. Huge capacitors may be a solution. Fuel cells and decent hydrogen storage (say, carbon nanotubes or some other matrix storage that operates at reasonable temperatures and pressures) may be a solution. Yes, this could happen. UNTIL it happens, EVs are a niche product that will make little dent overall in this country's energy usage patterns.


PhilB
Many industries do fine forming their own standardization bodies without government help. Look at cycling, for a mountain bike you can buy any fork on the market that complies to the standard your frame was manufactured under and it will bolt right on. Same with wheels, brakes, and drivetrains. Wouldn't that be sweet if you could do the same for dual sports and dirt bikes? It would make customization to specific needs easy and likely drive costs down. Power sources are going to have a standard general shape so this could be done with minimal sacrifice.

To me the allure of an EV is the torque curve, it could be powered by bald eagles and whooping cranes and i'd still think it pretty damn neat. It is frustrating though that we use coal and NG when nukes are a lot better on many levels once you get over the antiquated phobia of them.

So why focus on the obvious near-term short comings like they are some unbreakable barrier? There is nothing gained focusing on the obvious, which are short term problems anyway. It was once impossible for man to achieve powered flight, then to fly faster than the speed of sound, and then to go to the Moon. It was also once impossible for a sailing craft to break the 50kt barrier but that has been done as well. If we have something like standardized power packs in the near term to overcome the range issue we can later implement better energy storage solutions in the long term. I guess everyone just likes imperfect torque curves, cleaning their air filters, checking their valves, dealing with fueling issues for density altitude changes, and having way too many moving parts.
__________________
I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure
Quote:
Originally Posted by v8toilet
Of course the bike doesn't exist, this entire forum is here because the right bike doesn't exist but the right people do, and they make the trip anyway.
VxZeroKnots is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 08:44 PM   #66
windmill
Beastly Adventurer
 
windmill's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2008
Location: Kent, Washington State
Oddometer: 4,084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post
I believe the suggestion mentioned by the other poster was not about competing with current motorcycle segments as you mentioned. But that there could possibly be a new two-wheel segment, where people enter the motorcycle market via electric motorcycles. Small ones at that.
EV's seem to be one of those things that folks tend to choose sides on rather then just taking them for what they are based on philosophical rather than practical reasons.

Those for them choose to ignore their serious limitations in the hopes that they will be solved, with little regard for the other alternatives, counting the eggs of one chicken before they are hatched. Those against them choose to ignore that they, as they exist today, would indeed meet the needs of a large portion of the population if they were more economically viable for folks with limited budgets.

I have nothing against EV's, I'm just not convinced they must be the best answer.
__________________
"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".
windmill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 09:14 PM   #67
fallingoff
Banned
 
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: syd oz
Oddometer: 3,677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian™ View Post
That must have been based on the standard lead-acid type of battery.

Those particular batteries are not used in today's electric vehicles, for a variety of reasons; low energy density relative to weight is one of the reasons.
yeh
he got bought out
fallingoff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 02:39 AM   #68
John Smallberries
Beastly Adventurer
 
John Smallberries's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Northville, Michigan
Oddometer: 1,209
Foci and Leaves?

The other think that may likely kill the electric motorcycle in the US is simply keeping the companies alive long enough for the market to develop. Nissan sold 10,000 Leafs in the US last year with dealerships in all 50 states. Ford sold only 687 Focuses, albeit limited to 3-4 states. These trivial sales make the engineering and marketing effort for these vehicles a massive financial drain on the companies. Luckily, Nissan and Ford can absorb it - I'm not sure about a tiny startup.

It is hard to guess how many EVs will continue to sell after all the Ed Begley Jr's get their and the state/federal tax incentives go away.

Tesla would be long gone if not for the combined factors of a true-believing billionaire owner and our generous tax dollars. Ditto with Fisker.

I am familiar with the engineering that went into the Focus. It is a very good electric vehicle. It is DOA in the marketplace.
__________________
'05 BMW 1200GS
'09 Honda CRF230
'10 Yamaha TW200
John Smallberries is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 05:14 AM   #69
Rcrx21
02 KLR650; 02 KDX220
 
Rcrx21's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Collegeville, PA
Oddometer: 438
tax incentives from the Brammo site

About The Federal Tax Incentives

As part of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2010 (H.R.1) two new tax incentives were included for electric motorcycles:

First: is a tax credit in Section 1142 (H.R.1, pp. 214-217) which changes IRS Code Section 30 to allow for 2 wheeled electric vehicles to be included as a qualified plug-in electric vehicle in the overall plug-in vehicle tax credit.

These vehicles which need to be able to drive on public roads, streets, and highways, are eligible for a 10% Federal Tax Credit up to a maximum of $2,500. This is a Federal tax credit, which reduces your tax liability by the amount of the credit; eg: if you owe $5,000 to the IRS and purchase an $8,000 electric motorcycle package, you would receive an $800 credit and now owe $4,200. If you are owed a refund by the IRS, your refund is increased by the amount of the tax credit
Second: is a tax deduction for state sales taxes paid on motorcycles under Section 1008 (H.R.1, pp. 203-204).

This provides all taxpayers with a deduction for State and local sales and excise taxes paid on the purchase of new cars, light truck, recreational vehicles, and motorcycles through 2010. This deduction is subject to a phase-out for taxpayers with adjusted gross income in excess of $125,000 ($250,000 in the case of a joint return). In this case, since it is a Federal tax deduction, the amount comes off your adjusted gross income and reduces the amount of taxes paid based on your income tax bracket
As with all tax matters, this information does not constitute tax advice, please consult your tax advisor, attorney, or accountant for specific details on how to claim these tax benefits. The IRS will be providing final forms and instructions for these new tax incentives later in 2010.
__________________
02 KLR650
02 KDX220
04 WR250F
Rcrx21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 05:40 AM   #70
OlivierS
Adventurer
 
Joined: Feb 2013
Location: Belgium
Oddometer: 98
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VICsybYgMlc

I would love to own one of these.
Seems like a perfect toy to commute. But since I love above my shop that wont work, the handlebars are to wide for my staircase...
OlivierS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 12:07 PM   #71
PhilB
Beastly Adventurer
 
PhilB's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Location: New Hampshire
Oddometer: 1,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by VxZeroKnots View Post
Many industries do fine forming their own standardization bodies without government help. Look at cycling, for a mountain bike you can buy any fork on the market that complies to the standard your frame was manufactured under and it will bolt right on. Same with wheels, brakes, and drivetrains. Wouldn't that be sweet if you could do the same for dual sports and dirt bikes? It would make customization to specific needs easy and likely drive costs down. Power sources are going to have a standard general shape so this could be done with minimal sacrifice.

To me the allure of an EV is the torque curve, it could be powered by bald eagles and whooping cranes and i'd still think it pretty damn neat. It is frustrating though that we use coal and NG when nukes are a lot better on many levels once you get over the antiquated phobia of them.

So why focus on the obvious near-term short comings like they are some unbreakable barrier? There is nothing gained focusing on the obvious, which are short term problems anyway. It was once impossible for man to achieve powered flight, then to fly faster than the speed of sound, and then to go to the Moon. It was also once impossible for a sailing craft to break the 50kt barrier but that has been done as well. If we have something like standardized power packs in the near term to overcome the range issue we can later implement better energy storage solutions in the long term. I guess everyone just likes imperfect torque curves, cleaning their air filters, checking their valves, dealing with fueling issues for density altitude changes, and having way too many moving parts.
Attachment for a fork is very different from a whole power source. And forks are a well-established technology that isn't changing much; standardizing that is a simple agreement on a couple of measurements, not (say) a voltage/amperage/size and shape standardization for a part that is integrals to the entire design of the vehicle.

EVs do have a great torque curve. That makes it a fun toy, not a practical means of transport. I agree about nuclear power over coal; maybe we'll wise up and do that someday.

The problem with the "obvious near-term short comings" is that's where the government subsidies are going, and where the rent-seekers are going to get that government money, to the detriment of the future of the industry (yet another reason why government is a stupid way to get most things done). I would love to see useful and practical EVs. Wasting time on battery-powered EVs won't get us there. Spending time, and the huge amounts of money it would take, on an infrastructure of standardized battery packs would be a complete waste, and divert resources that could be better spent. If we want EVs to be a useful and significant part of our country's energy picture, we need to put our efforts into technologies that have actual promise to solve the problems.

PhilB
__________________
1993 Ducati M900 Monster "Patina" (228,000 miles, so far) -- 1995 Ducati M900 (wife's bike) -- 1972 Honda CB450 (daughter's bike) -- 1979 Vespa P200 (daughter's scoot) -- 1967 Alfa Romeo GT Jr. (1300cc) -- 1964 Vespa GS160 (160cc 2-stroke) -- 1962 Maicoletta scooter (275cc 2-stroke) -- 1960 Heinkel Tourist 103A1 scooter "Elroy" (175cc 4-stroke)
PhilB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 01:26 PM   #72
VxZeroKnots
Beastly Adventurer
 
VxZeroKnots's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Location: Durango CO
Oddometer: 2,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
Attachment for a fork is very different from a whole power source. And forks are a well-established technology that isn't changing much; standardizing that is a simple agreement on a couple of measurements, not (say) a voltage/amperage/size and shape standardization for a part that is integrals to the entire design of the vehicle.

EVs do have a great torque curve. That makes it a fun toy, not a practical means of transport. I agree about nuclear power over coal; maybe we'll wise up and do that someday.

The problem with the "obvious near-term short comings" is that's where the government subsidies are going, and where the rent-seekers are going to get that government money, to the detriment of the future of the industry (yet another reason why government is a stupid way to get most things done). I would love to see useful and practical EVs. Wasting time on battery-powered EVs won't get us there. Spending time, and the huge amounts of money it would take, on an infrastructure of standardized battery packs would be a complete waste, and divert resources that could be better spent. If we want EVs to be a useful and significant part of our country's energy picture, we need to put our efforts into technologies that have actual promise to solve the problems.

PhilB
That is a very valid point.

So? Motorcycles in and of themselves aren't always a practical means of transport.

Most of that sounds like a problem with government, prevailing business ideas, and consumer mindset not the vehicles themselves. Of course for a viable product you need all those ducks to line up in a row eventually, but I'm more of a do it because it's there sort. You're correct in that I'd only considered the form factor of the energy storage and not the more important aspects of what is going on.
__________________
I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure
Quote:
Originally Posted by v8toilet
Of course the bike doesn't exist, this entire forum is here because the right bike doesn't exist but the right people do, and they make the trip anyway.
VxZeroKnots is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 01:47 PM   #73
PhilB
Beastly Adventurer
 
PhilB's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Location: New Hampshire
Oddometer: 1,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by VxZeroKnots View Post
That is a very valid point.

So? Motorcycles in and of themselves aren't always a practical means of transport.

Most of that sounds like a problem with government, prevailing business ideas, and consumer mindset not the vehicles themselves. Of course for a viable product you need all those ducks to line up in a row eventually, but I'm more of a do it because it's there sort. You're correct in that I'd only considered the form factor of the energy storage and not the more important aspects of what is going on.


Motorcycles aren't generally used as a practical means of transport in the U.S.; they are mostly toys. But they CAN be used practically, and a lot of their uses as toys involve long distances. Plus much of the promotion of EVs is touted as practical for commuters, etc., and that's true in a limited fashion, although if a person can't afford the luxury of an extra vehicle for that dedicated use, it doesn't help much. The point is that if EVs (whether bikes or cars) are going to make a significant difference in oil dependence, or pollution, or anything else, they have to become useful and versatile.

And yes, you're absolutely right that "most of that sounds like a problem with government, prevailing business ideas, and consumer mindset", especially the first two.

I think this is the case with alternative energy development in this country in general.

PhilB
__________________
1993 Ducati M900 Monster "Patina" (228,000 miles, so far) -- 1995 Ducati M900 (wife's bike) -- 1972 Honda CB450 (daughter's bike) -- 1979 Vespa P200 (daughter's scoot) -- 1967 Alfa Romeo GT Jr. (1300cc) -- 1964 Vespa GS160 (160cc 2-stroke) -- 1962 Maicoletta scooter (275cc 2-stroke) -- 1960 Heinkel Tourist 103A1 scooter "Elroy" (175cc 4-stroke)
PhilB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2013, 07:50 AM   #74
ridetoak
n00b
 
Joined: Jan 2013
Oddometer: 2
they do have the range

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryboy View Post
I'd try one, but they don't have enough range yet. One way to work is 86 miles and they can't make it that far yet.

Range, must have, the rest of the bike is just simple details.
Actually they do have the range. Almost all electric motorcycles can go 100+ miles on a single charge. A few guys I know commute to work, charge at work, and ride home.
ridetoak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2013, 07:55 AM   #75
ridetoak
n00b
 
Joined: Jan 2013
Oddometer: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey. View Post
Love the analogy.

And as we're learning from 787s, they still "combust"

I'm still looking forward to hydrogen as pointed out in Top Gear. I think electric is a middle phase that will be a blip between gas and its replacement.
For everyone who keeps quoting the 787 battery issue it is an isolated issue where Boeing wired their batteries wrong. It has nothing to do with the batteries that power electric motorcycles.
ridetoak is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 08:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014