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Old 02-13-2013, 07:04 AM   #406
Anteraan
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Originally Posted by mrbreeze View Post
I am a bit confused (concerned) about who they ARE trying to sell it too, just as you seem to be. I think they are trying to develop a new market. They figure people are going to be looking for inexpensive ways of getting around. I think they are expecting to bring in people who would otherwise never have considered two wheel transportation, unless it was a scooter. I don't know what the scooter market is doing, but if the local mega-dealer's showroom floor is any indication, scooters are in demand.
Agreed. I believe I indicated the move-up scooter market as the possible audience for this vehicle, so we're on the same page there. Is it a big enough audience? Perhaps it is. I hope for Honda's sake it is.

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Originally Posted by mrbreeze View Post
Honda has developed a motorcycle/scooter hybrid (the NC series, which includes the CTX) to take advantage of what may be a developing trend. The NC first salvo is a hit - the NC700X. The next salvo is the CTX700.
Now here we differ a bit. I see the NC700X as a motorcycle and very far from a scooter. Say what you want about the low redline and DCT, but otherwise, it seems very little like a scooter to me. The CTX, maybe more so, but I see it riding more like a cruiser than a scooter, due to the forward controls. I see scooters as having much more of a mid to standard foot position compared to a cruiser, and the CTX fits much more into that cruiser position. Am I picking nits here? Maybe, because I have a background in biomechanics, and I think the user's body position means a LOT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbreeze View Post
New riders almost always want to be able to get both feet on the ground. Low seat heights appeal to them, which is why so many of them start out on small cruisers. They aren't thinking of their two wheeler as a long distance touring bike. They just want to ride it to school or to work, so the feet forward pegs are not a problem either. As far as performance, well if you;re comparing it to a 50cc Vespa or a 1994 Geo, the CTX will kick butt!
Agreed on most fronts. But riddle me this...if so many people start on small cruisers, why was the Ninja 250 the best-selling motorcycle in this country for so many years? The thing went unchanged for what, 17 years or so? Kawi was obviously doing something right there...with beginning riders.

Contrary to what some believe, it is far, FAR from a supersport riding position. Don't let the Ninja name fool you. The N250 is basically a standard with some sporty bodywork, and its seat height (30.5 in for new-gen, 29.3 for pre-gen) is plenty low for most people, especially males, which make up the bulk of the motorcycle-buying market.

Here's the kicker - are you ready for it? That 30.5 in seat height is still EQUAL TO OR LOWER than anything in the Vespa line of scooters! The 50 series has a 30.5 seat height, the 150 series has a 30.9 in seat height, and the 300 series has a 31.1 in seat height. I don't hear any complaints about flat-footing those, so that puts that to rest.

Fun conversation. Thanks to all for participating.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:07 AM   #407
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Well, the reason I am disappointed, is because Honda dumped time and money into creating these bikes, which don't interest me. It may be self serving of me to say that I wish Honda had, instead, put their efforts toward something that did catch my eye, but that's the way it is.
My first reaction upon seeing the CTX700 was disappointment also. I think that was mainly because of the hype. I was expecting something all new. When I saw the CTX, the first thing I noticed was the same 700cc engine from the NC. Then I realized it wasn't all new, it was just a different format for the NC700.

That's OK I guess. Honda did not intend this bike for me. If I had to choose between the NC and the CTX, I would choose the NC. But I would also prefer to wait until I have seen and parked my gluteus maximus on a CB1100 and a CB500X before making a decision. Unfortunately, I am not in the market for a new bike, so it's all just wishful thinking anyway. The other day I mentioned to Mrs. B that I might like to add a second bike to the stable, and she bounced off the ceiling.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:23 AM   #408
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Originally Posted by Anteraan View Post
Agreed. I believe I indicated the move-up scooter market as the possible audience for this vehicle, so we're on the same page there. Is it a big enough audience? Perhaps it is. I hope for Honda's sake it is.



Now here we differ a bit. I see the NC700X as a motorcycle and very far from a scooter. Say what you want about the low redline and DCT, but otherwise, it seems very little like a scooter to me. The CTX, maybe more so, but I see it riding more like a cruiser than a scooter, due to the forward controls. I see scooters as having much more of a mid to standard foot position compared to a cruiser, and the CTX fits much more into that cruiser position. Am I picking nits here? Maybe, because I have a background in biomechanics, and I think the user's body position means a LOT.



Agreed on most fronts. But riddle me this...if so many people start on small cruisers, why was the Ninja 250 the best-selling motorcycle in this country for so many years? The thing went unchanged for what, 17 years or so? Kawi was obviously doing something right there...with beginning riders.

Contrary to what some believe, it is far, FAR from a supersport riding position. Don't let the Ninja name fool you. The N250 is basically a standard with some sporty bodywork, and its seat height (30.5 in for new-gen, 29.3 for pre-gen) is plenty low for most people, especially males, which make up the bulk of the motorcycle-buying market.

Here's the kicker - are you ready for it? That 30.5 in seat height is still EQUAL TO OR LOWER than anything in the Vespa line of scooters! The 50 series has a 30.5 seat height, the 150 series has a 30.9 in seat height, and the 300 series has a 31.1 in seat height. I don't hear any complaints about flat-footing those, so that puts that to rest.

Fun conversation. Thanks to all for participating.
I can see I'm not going to get any work done today.

To me, the entire NC/CTX line is scooter based. Have you seen the Integra Honda is offering in Europe? It's an NC in a different format, and it's a scooter. So whatever H came up with had to be able to work as a scooter as well as a motorcycle. It's the low frame and low motor that allow the storage area.

I base my opinion of what new riders want based on my own experiences. I took my 20 yr old daughter with me one day when I was shopping for a new bike. She was drawn to the Ninja 250 and the CBR250. I see lots of young people riding these. They are affordable, get great gas mileage, and they are easy and fun to ride. My daughter was on her toes when sitting on them, and that made her a bit nervous. My wife, on the other hand, who is the exact same size as my daughter, and who has her mc license, would not even consider the Ninja or CBR250. She went straight to the small cruisers. She likes the Rebel 250. She could easily flat foot it, and that was the most important thing to her. I see this same preference in a lot of new riders who are older, whether they are male or female. Older newbies tend to want both feet firmly on the ground. Younger newbies tend to want something a little more exciting. I have tried to get my wife interested in scooters, but since she can't flat foot it, the only one she would consider is the Piaggio MP3.
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Old 02-13-2013, 08:10 AM   #409
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This is called thread shitting. Popping in with caustic non-substantive comments has no value and in fact detracts from the purpose of the forum. Done on a regular basis it becomes an irritation. Please discontinue doing this.

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Old 02-13-2013, 09:45 AM   #410
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This is an example of what not to do when a moderator tells you to stop threadshitting.
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:51 AM   #411
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I don't know how you can fall in love with a bike from Honda that isn't in showrooms at this time either. I was at my Honda dealership a couple days ago and all they have that's new is the 2013 CBR250R. Same with Kawasaki. The only new models from Kaw on the floor at this time are the 250 and the new 636, which isn't really anything new in either case.

I love Honda motorcycles as far as build quality goes. That's the premium you're paying for, and quite frankly it's worth it to pay a grand or two more for the same displacement motorcycle as other competitors. The bike I owned prior to my 2011 Ninja 1000 was my 2006 Honda Interceptor. i loved that bike. I bought the Ninja 1000 to replace it soley because the Interceptor is no longer available in the US (UK still has them).

Your CTX700 is a 2014 model due out in the spring of 2013. Besides that, it's a repeat of an already defunct model called the DN-01. I test road a DN-01 at Daytona. Not impressive. I wasn't alone in that notion. That's why it only stuck around a couple years in the US.

You may ponder why, if I loved my Interceptor, didn't I buy a VFR1200? Well, go to the VFR forum and you'll see my opinion. I called it a turd in the toilet that won't flush (sell). I also said that about the NT700V. Both models doing poorly in the US, with the later already discontinued (only proving that what sells like gangbusters in Europe won't sell in the US).

The VFR1200 - $15,000.00 for NOTHING SPECIAL. For that tag it should have been stock with the GIVI hard cases and heated grips at LEAST. I see them selling on showroom floors in PAIRS now. The 2012 models can be had for $11,000.00 USD!!!!! That's what a VFR800 used to cost! LMFAO!


Let's dissect your choice of the CTX700 (faired model) - They tout it as full fairing. It's not. It has an ABS underbelly (cost savings)

Look at it on the accessories page - The optional tall windcscreen should be standard on a model they call cruiser, with the short stocker screen that should be the option and call it SPORT. The optional hard cases are thin. They won't hold your helmet and maybe not even a briefcase, but they'll set you back $1,200.00. The heated grips set you back another $300. The tail rack and backrest I can only assume are sold separately and total about $200. If you want an automatic (not that I would) add another grand.

So, what seems to be a reasonably priced base model can add up quickly to over $10k OTD for a 670cc bike. Value????

The specs page is not even complete, but I can make a few assumptions about it knowing their other model, the NC700X. By the way, Honda seems intent on ramming this 670 parallel twin down our throats The NCX weighs in at 472lbs wet. I can imagine a few more pounds on the CTX, if not at least the same weight. The CTX has a 3.1 gallon tank - a loss of volume because of their 'handy storage feature' no doubt. While the NCX has a 3.7 gallon capacity and can store a full face helmet (stolen idea from an Aprilia Mana) where the tank is usually located. Honda says CTX fuel mileage to be determined (TBD)... Really??? the NCX states 64mpg.

Now the CTX700N is the naked model and to me is more appealing than their faired version that reminds me all too much of the DN-01. It does have a reasonable pricetag, but a 3.1 gallon tank leaves me with a sour taste.

The DN-01, the NCX700, the CTX700 - all re-hashed versions of the same thing. Same trellis frame, same engine, same transmission offerings. I think Honda has a lot of parts they are trying like hell to get rid of here! These bikes back in the 70's were what we called 'PARTS BIN SPECIALS' - reference to Yamaha Radian if you can think back that far. At least Yamaha CALLED it that so there would be no misconceptions! Honda is serving you up a re-heated TV dinner with a different color gravy on it to see if the picky child will finally eat it!

Sorry if I pissed on your fire, but i'm really not. I'm pissing on smoldering ashes only. It's Honda that wants you to see the fire. How many ways is Honda going to try and shove the 670cc engine down our throats till we finally just tell them to go take a supository and have a good shit?

Frankly, you should look at the Aprilia Mana if the CTX is your bag. More bang for the buck, fully accessory capable, and it's a V-Twin which has a sound all its own. Also, it's an 850cc bike with the same fuel mileage ratings as the Honda's. Italian built bike - been on showroom floors a few years now - meaning you can actually go SIT on one and check it out. It's been upgraded every year so far - meaning they plan to keep it around a while - meaning it's SELLING enough to make them keep putting it out - meaning there are some happy riders out there.

You may still like the Honda better. Go for it - next year. the CTX is a 2014 model that Honda says will be out in the spring of 2013. I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. Honda also announced the VFR1200 early and it was months later that it actually came to the showrooms. Yamaha also guilty as charged when they announced the first FJR1300 back in 2003. They were 3 months behind schedule.

What does interest me from Honda? The CB1100 that'll be in the showrooms in a month. PREDICTION - THAT bike is going to sell before it hits the floor!!! Frankly though I was hoping that they'd also offer this naked nostalgia ride in an 850 version. WAIT A MINUTE!! ! That's how they can get rid of the overstock of 670'cc engines!!!! And the can call it a CB700!!! GOD I'M GOOD!!! (2015??!!)
I am interested in the naked CTX with manual transmission and no ABS. What I like about it? the feet forward pullback bar riding position, and the $6999 price tag for a 700. You can get optional bags, but the aftermarket may come up with something cheaper. The CB1100 is gorgeous, but $3K more, and it has rearset pegs and a lean forward riding position. The GW250 also seems to have a sportier riding position than I thought it had after seeing a lot more pictures of it. I have to have a bike with pegs that allow my knees to have at least a 90 degree bend, and bars I can reach while still having a bend in my elbows, the typical cruiser riding position. I sold an EX500 because it was too painful for me to ride. I have ridden cruisers most of my life, here is a bike with the cruiser riding position, but it doesn't look like a cruiser (I think most of todays cruisers look like Harleys, and while I have nothing against Harley, I don't like copies) If I wanted a Harley I would buy a Harley. In fact I do want a Harley, I just can't afford it. To me the CTX naked version in black looks a lot like the GW250, only bigger and with a better riding position. If and when any of these bikes make it to a dealer, I will check out everything I am even remotely interested in before buying something.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:14 AM   #412
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Originally Posted by Yossarian™ View Post
Well, the reason I am disappointed, is because Honda dumped time and money into creating these bikes, which don't interest me. It may be self serving of me to say that I wish Honda had, instead, put their efforts toward something that did catch my eye, but that's the way it is.
So you actually admit it. You're mad because Honda makes a bike that YOU personally don't like, so you come on here and rant and rave about how awful it is. Honda makes a lot of street bikes I don't like, here's a list:

1. ST1300
2. NT700V
3. NC700X
4. CB500X
5. CBR600RR
6. CBR1000RR
7. CBR250R
8. Fury
9. VFR1200F
10. CB1000R
11. CBR500R
12. CB500F

There is a thread on here for every one of them. Maybe I should go to every one of those threads and start bashing those bikes. Would you have a problem with that, since that is exactly what you are doing with the CTX700? See, I don't care that Honda makes all these bikes, even though none of them are for me, and I have no clue why anybody would want to ride such uncomfortable bikes. But if they do, fine. It's none of my business. Every single motorcycle manufacturer makes a lot of bikes I don't like. I'm just glad there are a few I do like. This just happens to be one of them.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:20 AM   #413
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Entitlement mentality, lol.



It's a joke. Easy, now.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:23 AM   #414
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I don't mind a dissenting opinion of substance. I like to hear both the good and the bad, supporting and dissenting opinions. The substance free sniping doesn't have a place here though. Drive by "Honda sucks goat butt" sort of stuff goes in JM.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:38 AM   #415
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Well, the reason I am disappointed, is because Honda dumped time and money into creating these bikes, which don't interest me. It may be self serving of me to say that I wish Honda had, instead, put their efforts toward something that did catch my eye, but that's the way it is.
I understand what you're saying.
What look would catch your eye?

Honda designed a bike they feel they could sell (the US is still a huge cruiser buying country). Add to that Honda has also become a very much future thinking company, not a market reactive company.

When gas is well over $4 gallon everyone is going to be looking at these engines and saying brilliant...and look at all the bike variations you can buy with this base frame/engine package. And then wow they did it for that low of a price...brilliant. There is something for everyone in this category.

For me, I want to see updated dual-sports from Honda and the the other 3 Japanese companies but I understand the market is not there, yet, to support the sales numbers they need to make it work. I built up my DR650 how I wanted it and will wait till the market and thus the bikes get there. Maybe Yamaha will finally bring in the 660 Tenere. Maybe it will be an updated DR650? Who knows, but for now I accept what I can buy today and make it work for me.

It's fun to talk about what we like and don't like and what we want to see but...
In the end these corporations make products they think they can sell a lot of, not what is cool looking to a few.
Those are the rules of successful corporations. I applaud Honda for sticking their neck out with this whole 700 concept.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:48 AM   #416
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Its honestly not bad, I like the cruiser ish look and feel but in a sporty looking wrapper. I am probably going to be disappointed with the power though. If they up the displacement in a following model than I would give it a hard look.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:54 AM   #417
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Its honestly not bad, I like the cruiser ish look and feel but in a sporty looking wrapper. I am probably going to be disappointed with the power though. If they up the displacement in a following model than I would give it a hard look.
don't forget the under-pinnings of the 700 concept is squeezing max mpg.
look to other models or mfg for more power.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:05 PM   #418
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So you actually admit it. You're mad because Honda makes a bike that YOU personally don't like, so you come on here and rant and rave about how awful it is. Honda makes a lot of street bikes I don't like, here's a list:

1. ST1300
2. NT700V
3. NC700X
4. CB500X
5. CBR600RR
6. CBR1000RR
7. CBR250R
8. Fury
9. VFR1200F
10. CB1000R
11. CBR500R
12. CB500F

There is a thread on here for every one of them. Maybe I should go to every one of those threads and start bashing those bikes. Would you have a problem with that, since that is exactly what you are doing with the CTX700? See, I don't care that Honda makes all these bikes, even though none of them are for me, and I have no clue why anybody would want to ride such uncomfortable bikes. But if they do, fine. It's none of my business. Every single motorcycle manufacturer makes a lot of bikes I don't like. I'm just glad there are a few I do like. This just happens to be one of them.
The NT700V is another bike I liked, in fact I came real close to buying one. Sometimes I wish I had. It came down to it or the FJR. I went for the FJR for more power, and what I had seen on maintenance on the NT was pretty discouraging. It seems it was designed at a time when Honda wasn't thinking about ease of maintenance. I liked the ergos of the NT better though. Less weight on the arms, and a better seat. One of the minor reasons I got rid of the FJR was the weight on the bars. I know I could have put some risers on it, but there were other reasons to let it go as well.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:23 PM   #419
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Its honestly not bad, I like the cruiser ish look and feel but in a sporty looking wrapper. I am probably going to be disappointed with the power though. If they up the displacement in a following model than I would give it a hard look.
They won't do this because they already make bikes in that role, more or less.

the NC/CTX motor is all about enough power for the street and highway and good MPG.

If/when they decide to kill the NT700, maybe there will be a more sport-touring oriented NC700. It has been around since 2006 (or 98 as the NT650) or so, according to wikipedia, so maybe that's the plan.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:32 PM   #420
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They won't do this because they already make bikes in that role, more or less.

the NC/CTX motor is all about enough power for the street and highway and good MPG.

If/when they decide to kill the NT700, maybe there will be a more sport-touring oriented NC700. It has been around since 2006 (or 98 as the NT650) or so, according to wikipedia, so maybe that's the plan.

They are just selling off the remaining NT's. 2011 was the last year for it in the US, at least.
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