Please help - high oil consumption

[azcagiva]

Originally Posted by RedRupert

Point taken. I should have used lawn-mower oil (or similar) after the rebuilt, if only to rule out the too slippery oil theory. I'm certainly not saying that I don't agree with you. Here in the Soviet Union, I expect it'll be hard to find proper running-in oil... maybe I should drain it out of a new Yamaha!

Looking at my leak-down results, do you think that ring seating could be the problem?

Thanks.

I think your rings are not seated all the way. With the fairly smooth cylinder surface and the syn oil it will take awhile (if ever), for the rings to take a complete seat. The top rings have the benefit of cylinder pressure to push them into the cylinder wall, the oil rings do not.

I have had a few ring seat issues with some trucks in my fleet. The trucks run propane and since the reformulation of oil here in the US we have had issues with new rebuilds. I had to start using a high zinc oil in combination with a rough hone and higher tension oil rings to solve our problem. I am a believer in the break in oil now.

Regular oil would be a lot easier to try than tearing it down and starting over.

-John

[Orange Toaster]

Originally Posted by baloneyskin daddy

If you think using thicker oil is the answer you're ass backwards as it is harder for the rings to wipe off the thicker oil. Try going to a lighter oil it takes less power to circulate and may even improve gas mileage a little.

All I'm saying is that when I ran my 950 with 10W-40 oil it used more than when running the KTM recommended Motorex 10W-50.
I am not saying that it have to be Motorex, now (20,000+ kms later) I run private label 10W-50 and it is using around 0.1-0.3 l/1000 kms subject to riding style. Bike has now done around 66,000 kms. Mostly touring.

/OT

[adcolor]

Not to avoid troubleshooting your rings. But.

I presume the LC8 has smooth rod & crank bearings. If they are loose enough, the big end of the rod bearing can spray oil onto the cylinder walls, overwhelming the oil ring. No suggestions on how to determine that w/o a tear down.

Does this engine design have a cooling jet of oil that sprays the under side of the piston? If so, how is this regulated?

Good luck.

[RedRupert]

Originally Posted by azcagiva

If it were me I would try running some non syn. I have access to break in oil, you might be able to find some. The zinc and phos do help the rings seat(this is waht the guys at total seal rings have told me). It sounds like your top rings are seated maybe the dino oil will help the oil rings. Won't hurt to try.

-John

Yes, I'm going to try using straight 30W oil as you and Dave have suggested, in order to seat the oil rings.

Please can you give me some advice on:

a) The best oil and how to find/identify it - API standard S?

b) The best way to seat the rings, and what to avoid doing.

Thanks for your help,

Rupert

[RedRupert]

Originally Posted by pdxmotorhead

Yea,, it does not take very long at all to seat rings when everything is right.. 30 weight non detergent oil can be found at marine suppliers sometimes in my country.. as hard and sharp aas nicasil is I'd expect less than 100 miles ot bed the rings, sometimes some mild lugging for 2 or three minutes will help..

On a engine with forged piston and aluminum bore the leakdown needs to be done as soon after stopping as possible, you need the motor warm. The forged pistons loosen way up when cold.. The cosworth I mentioned would go from 30% cold to 5% hot.. :)

Cheers

Dave

Thanks for your advice. I was reluctant to accept it at first, partly because I was annoyed with myself - I did know that synthetic oils are no good for running-in (I've read about the problems Yamaha had a few years ago). I made a half-hearted effort to find a suitable oil, but ended out settling for semi-synthetic.

There is too much soot in the exhaust pipes. The oil is being burnt. The valve-guides and the pistons were in very, very good condition.

Also, as I've said, I led the engine vent pipe into a catch-bottle - rather than into the top of the air-box. Since doing this, the pre-filter has been very black, and so was the front of the OE paper air-filter before the pre-filter was fitted - almost as if there's too much oil in the air around the air-box intake.

I'm going to try using straight 30W oil as you and John have suggested, in order to seat the oil rings.

Please can you give me some advice on:

a) The best oil and how to find/identify it - API standard S? (what suffix if any to go for?)

b) The best way to seat the rings, and what to avoid doing.

Thanks again,

Rupert


Re the leak-down: I ran the engine 'till the fan cut-in before conducting the test, but was surprised to see that the readings were very close to the ones I'd taken while the engine was cold. I should try it again.

[charlie264]

Rupert, I spoke to Bob Presslee ex KTM machanic. He said try 10-40 mineral bike oil for a couple of thousand miles, he added they had a SD that kept burning a lot of oil, the guy sold the bike and the new owner took it on a few track days and that cured it.

[RedRupert]

Originally Posted by charlie264

Rupert, I spoke to Bob Presslee ex KTM machanic. He said try 10-40 mineral bike oil for a couple of thousand miles, he added they had a SD that kept burning a lot of oil, the guy sold the bike and the new owner took it on a few track days and that cured it.

KTM true to their word then! Really, Ready To Race!

Thanks for the info. I'll use some mineral oil, but it'll be a while before I know the results, as we'll have snow and ice on the ground until the end of April!

How should I ride it with the mineral oil inside - plenty of acceleration and engine breaking, or thrash it?

I do thrash hell out of my bike - it's only used abroad while on holiday. Never any commuting, touring or pootling, I promise.

[azcagiva]

Rupert,

In the US, the EPA made the oil companies reformulate the gas and diesel oils, they took out the zinc and some other stuff. I imagine since you do not have the EPA to deal with your dino oil should have higher zinc and other good things for engines. A good 30 wt, or similar diesel oil should work in a pinch. I use Maxima break in oil and have had good luck so far with it.

As far as what not to do I would wait for the engine to warm up to give the pistons time to grow. I would then flog the piss out of it and hope for the best. If that does not fix the high oil consumption I would just live with adding oil until the next rebuild. ( Which is what I am doing with my ducati at the moment).

Let us know how it goes and good luck.

-John

[Pistolero]

[AdvRonski]

Originally Posted by RedRupert

Thanks. I will answer so that there is a record of what I've done etc.:

I used a Flex-Hone to hone the bores in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations and instructions. I used the 240 grade Aluminium Oxide version, which produced a nice light and even cross-hatched surface. I used WD40 to lubricate, and ran the tool through the bore with quick strokes for only 20 seconds. It does not look as if I've ruined the cylinder - remember that it drank oil before I honed, as well as after. Flex-Hones should not be used in two-strokes because of the ports.



This is the result:

I replaced the rings on my 2004 950, and honed the cylinders with the same type of hone. I also added the crankcase vent valve that did not come on the early bikes. I had no issues with ring seating, and oil consumption is quite low.



However, the picture of your cylinder shows the angle of the cross-hatching is way too shallow. I am a professional auto technician, and have found honing properly takes a while to get the hang of. It appears the you had the hone rpm too high for the frequency of your up and down movement. The ideal angle is 60 degrees between the up and down lines, while yours appears to be about 10 degrees. Hopefully some break-in oil will help seat those rings without another tear-down.

[RedRupert]

Originally Posted by AdvRonski

I replaced the rings on my 2004 950, and honed the cylinders with the same type of hone. I also added the crankcase vent valve that did not come on the early bikes. I had no issues with ring seating, and oil consumption is quite low.

However, the picture of your cylinder shows the angle of the cross-hatching is way too shallow. I am a professional auto technician, and have found honing properly takes a while to get the hang of. It appears the you had the hone rpm too high for the frequency of your up and down movement. The ideal angle is 60 degrees between the up and down lines, while yours appears to be about 10 degrees. Hopefully some break-in oil will help seat those rings without another tear-down.

My bike had the crankcase breather valve installed as an official KTM modification back in 2005.

I agree about the angle of the hone marks - my speed was low - should have been around 600 RPM (I used a battery drill) but I accept that I didn't plunge fast enough. However, I hope too shallow is better than too steep - logically it would seem so. Flex-Hone stated 'around 45 degrees' but I would not have known how to get to 45 without more practice, as you've pointed out.

What oil did you use while running-in (break-in)?

Thanks,

Rupert

[Northyork]

Here is some info I have gathered from Amsoil's website http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produc...-%28sae-30%29/

AMSOIL Break-In Oil is an SAE 30 viscosity grade oil formulated without friction modifiers to allow for quick and efficient piston ring seating in new and rebuilt high-performance and racing engines. It contains zinc and phosphorus anti-wear additives to protect cam lobes, lifters and rockers during the critical break-in period when wear rates are highest, while its increased film strength protects rod and main bearings from damage. AMSOIL Break-In Oil is designed to increase compression, horsepower and torque for maximum engine performance.
Quickly Seats Rings
The primary goal during engine break-in is to seat the rings against the cylinder wall. Properly seated rings increase compression, resulting in maximum horsepower; they reduce oil consumption and prevent hot combustion gases from entering the crankcase. To achieve this, however, the oil must allow the correct level of “controlled wear” to occur between the cylinder wall/ring interface while maintaining wear protection on other critical engine parts. Insufficient break-in leaves behind peaks on the cylinder wall that prevent the rings from seating. The deeper valleys, meanwhile, allow excess oil to collect and burn during combustion, increasing oil consumption. Too much wear results in cylinder glazing due to peaks “rolling over” into the valleys and preventing oil from collecting and adequately lubricating the cylinder wall.
AMSOIL Break-In Oil’s friction-modifier-free formula allows the sharp peaks on newly honed cylinder walls (fig. 1) to partially flatten. The result produces more surface area for rings to seat against, allowing formation of a dynamic seal that increases compression, horsepower and torque (fig. 2).

[AdvRonski]

That's rather encouraging. Perhaps the Amsoil break-in oil will seat those rings.
I just used a synth blend oil, and rode it like I normally do. Hard.

[Northyork]

Originally Posted by Northyork

Here is some info I have gathered from Amsoil's website http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produc...-%28sae-30%29/

AMSOIL Break-In Oil is an SAE 30 viscosity grade oil formulated without friction modifiers to allow for quick and efficient piston ring seating in new and rebuilt high-performance and racing engines. It contains zinc and phosphorus anti-wear additives to protect cam lobes, lifters and rockers during the critical break-in period when wear rates are highest, while its increased film strength protects rod and main bearings from damage. AMSOIL Break-In Oil is designed to increase compression, horsepower and torque for maximum engine performance.
Quickly Seats Rings
The primary goal during engine break-in is to seat the rings against the cylinder wall. Properly seated rings increase compression, resulting in maximum horsepower; they reduce oil consumption and prevent hot combustion gases from entering the crankcase. To achieve this, however, the oil must allow the correct level of “controlled wear” to occur between the cylinder wall/ring interface while maintaining wear protection on other critical engine parts. Insufficient break-in leaves behind peaks on the cylinder wall that prevent the rings from seating. The deeper valleys, meanwhile, allow excess oil to collect and burn during combustion, increasing oil consumption. Too much wear results in cylinder glazing due to peaks “rolling over” into the valleys and preventing oil from collecting and adequately lubricating the cylinder wall.
AMSOIL Break-In Oil’s friction-modifier-free formula allows the sharp peaks on newly honed cylinder walls (fig. 1) to partially flatten. The result produces more surface area for rings to seat against, allowing formation of a dynamic seal that increases compression, horsepower and torque (fig. 2).

Can it be used on a bike with wet clutch? Cannot find any info

[RedRupert]

The info from AMSOIL is useful, but they are not well represented in the UK. However, a well respected British company, Millers Oils www.millersoils.co.uk have recommended two of their products. They have representatives in US and around the world.

Classic Running In Oil

http://www.millersoils.co.uk/scripts...dsegmentID=240

Liquid Glaze Bust

http://www.millersoils.co.uk/scripts...dsegmentID=165

I'm going to try the Liquid Glaze Bust, as I've covered 12,000 km since the rebuild. The Classic Running In Oil sounds ideal for first fill after a rebuild.

Millers have confirmed that both the above products are suitable for wet clutch engines.