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Old 05-21-2013, 05:28 PM   #346
jscottyk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
So I spoke with my tuner, and with Gaspares knowledge regarding the activity of the SAS, he was sure there were something else going wrong here. It should run perhaps a little worse, if any, but not fall flat like it did. So here is a few items to mull over. First thing he asked, was if I had disconnected the crank case vent in stead. Guess he have seen that act up, if plugged. I think Gaspare just unplugged his..... Yes...???? could there be some confusing of the BMS-K, with a solid plug in there. Mind you, Gaspare did his with a reflash of the BMS-K..... Mind you Joes knows his stuff on the BMW's, and even though I disagree with a few things he said, about power in general, he was very adament, about the plugging of the SAS is detrimental to the 8GS. So far, he is the only one here with the knowledge to dispute that theory..... JOOOOOEEEELLLLLLLLLLLL..... need you..... fornt and center soldier...... Pleazzzzzzzz....

You might try this approach to avoid both a BMS-K error, a blockage and still remove the SAS/PAIR from the equation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
  • Disconnect the hose from the valve cover
  • plug the entry into the valve cover
  • tuck the hose away somewhere safe but leave it open
  • Then do not disconnect the solenoid at all
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Old 05-21-2013, 05:32 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
You might try this approach to avoid both a BMS-K error, a blockage and still remove the SAS/PAIR from the equation.
LOL...I did think of this, as it was written earlier.... But that means removal of the airbox.....
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Old 05-21-2013, 05:40 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
LOL...I did think of this, as it was written earlier.... But that means removal of the airbox.....
Ugh. That's true. Another quick test might be to unplug the solenoid. Gaspares experience indicates that will not cause an error.
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Old 05-21-2013, 05:48 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
Ugh. That's true. Another quick test might be to unplug the solenoid. Gaspares experience indicates that will not cause an error.
That is the way I am leaning right now.
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Old 05-21-2013, 06:34 PM   #350
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Hey EB

I have tried to find where Joel said disconnecting the SAS was detrimental to the bike but cannot find it. I am probably looking in the wrong place. i did find where he said the SAS would skew the O2 reading to the ECU.

" Secondary air would confuse the oxygen sensor were it flowing all the time, so this solenoid valve is switched on by the engine management computer (BMW speak=BMSK) when desirable and off when accurate O2 sensor readings are desired"

He says this also, which does not reference air/fuel ratio.

"This is why you will NEVER improve HP and runability through airbox mods, filter mods, header mods, or fancy slip ons. You may increase noise, or peak HP, but always at the cost of mid range torque."

It would seem that since the ECU controls the valve it determines when it is beneficial to be open or closed.

I am trying to understand how this works. If you were close to me I would give you my GS-911 to find out.

Terry
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:48 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by terryckdbf View Post
Hey EB

I have tried to find where Joel said disconnecting the SAS was detrimental to the bike but cannot find it. I am probably looking in the wrong place. i did find where he said the SAS would skew the O2 reading to the ECU.

" Secondary air would confuse the oxygen sensor were it flowing all the time, so this solenoid valve is switched on by the engine management computer (BMW speak=BMSK) when desirable and off when accurate O2 sensor readings are desired"

He says this also, which does not reference air/fuel ratio.

"This is why you will NEVER improve HP and runability through airbox mods, filter mods, header mods, or fancy slip ons. You may increase noise, or peak HP, but always at the cost of mid range torque."

It would seem that since the ECU controls the valve it determines when it is beneficial to be open or closed.

I am trying to understand how this works. If you were close to me I would give you my GS-911 to find out.

Terry
I will look for it. I thought I saw it in the SAS thread, where he was talking about the SAS working like an afterburner, creating more power...... Not sure where the heck it was.
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:59 PM   #352
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I think this was it...... Perhaps I red between the lines.... Post #9 Line 11 improves hp.... Not sure if it was here, but If it improves hp engaged, then take it out, and HP will suffer....

http://www.advrider.com/forums/newre...ply&p=14494955

I will look further.....
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:02 PM   #353
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Post# 22.....

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...=637370&page=2
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:05 PM   #354
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I think this is what you are referring to...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
...

Next down the line is a reed valve. This valve is bolted to the valve cover. In essence it is a light weight high speed one way valve. This valve blocks the channel where second air is injected into the exhaust. One side of this reed valve has fresh filtered air at atmospheric pressure any time the second air solenoid is open. The other side has exhaust pressure. Exhaust pressure is not constant. Right as the cylinder exhaust valve opens, pressure goes up and exhaust accelerates through the exhaust system. Exhaust has mass, as the last of the exhaust leaves the cylinder, exhaust with mass is still flowing at high speed through the exhaust pipes. Since the cylinder is empty and exhaust valve closing, there is no longer any inlet to support continued flow and the exhaust begins slowing. The mass of the exhaust that was flowing forms a partial vacuum as it decelerates. This vacuum opens the reed valve and draws in secondary air. This action along with tuned air box, tuned header and exhaust, and secondary air inlet not only reduces emissions by adding more oxygen to promote afterburning, it improves volumetric efficiency and therefore horse power. This is why you will NEVER improve HP and runability through airbox mods, filter mods, header mods, or fancy slip ons. You may increase noise, or peak HP, but always at the cost of mid range torque. No aftermarket manufacture has the wads of cash or engineering brain power to design componants that work better then BMW original equipment.

NOTES: The factory optional Acropovic pipe was engineered by BMW and will improve HP extremely slightly while reducing weight and creating a pleasing exhaust note that drooled out most of the clicks and rattles from the noisy creaky 603 engine.

You CAN increase power some by screwing with the fuel mixture but emissions will go to hell and deposits will build up in the combustion chamber as well as in the exhaust and of course, the O2 sensor will plug.
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:09 PM   #355
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and this...

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Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
Yes, filtered air from the airbox is injected to the exhaust to promote clean burning. In that sense, the F800GS HAS TRADITIONAL SAS :)

What is fairly high tech is that the air injection actually improves volumetric efficiency (good breathing) of the engine.

I couldn't explain in a 50X post all that goes into the volumetric efficiency of this engine because I'm good enough with math to recognize good math, usually, but not nearly good enough with math to explain it...


You absolutely can increase peak power at red line through modding of intake, exhaust, filter, or even valve timing, but I believe it will always be at the cost of mid range torque.
d away. ...
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:10 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
I think this is what you are referring to...
Yes, along with post#22... I did not think we were alowed to quote cross threading. That's why I linked it... Sorry. I have only been a member here for a few years, but I have learned to listen when Joel speaks about the 8GS. And I cannot help thinking there is more to this SAS than meets the eye. I am hoping Joel at some point can shed some more light on why mine ran like crap, with it disconnected.
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:44 PM   #357
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"What is fairly high tech is that the air injection actually improves volumetric efficiency (good breathing) of the engine. "

Perhaps it helps scavenging the exhaust on a cat equiped bike, perhaps...

Adding air after burn will result in a bad 02 reading. Nothing high tech there. Erling is having issues because the tune was set with the PAIR in operation, now that the extra air is gone the 02 is getting a differant reading and telling the PCV to give a bad mixture, resulting in a bike that runs like crap...

I am willing to bet that once Erling installs the -002 MAP and disables the AT he will have a great running bike. Takes 2 minutes, unless of course he hid the PCV
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:44 PM   #358
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Okay, I think I finally caught up with you guys. Remember my post about industrial engines and ethanol to ITSATDM? For catalyst function the exact mixture of NOx, unburned hydrocarbons or fuel (HC), CO and O2 must be maintained. Where I think you are going astray is forgetting why the SAS is on the engine to begin with. Industrial engines do not use SAS, they also do not have large changes in throttle like automotive engines. Given the points SAS appears to be active, it is points the engineers know that extra HC's will be in the exhaust, mainly through off throttle operation or higher desired torque. The SAS is an emissions control device and allows engineers to allow more HC's in the exhaust, but still keep the catalyst firing.

As Ebrabaek no longer has a catalyst, there is really no reason to have the SAS, except the the ECU expects it to be there. It appears that the ECU is still trying to correct the AFR even with the DJ unit in place. It is still running in closed loop mode. Why would it not? It doesn't know the catalyst is gone, it's still getting an O2 sensor signal, why would it change operation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRose View Post
Could it be that if the SAS were disabled during the intial tuning, you would have seen better results?
I think yes. However the trick will be able to disable it and still let the ECU operate properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
Ha ha, you know one of the things that came to my mind instantly, is my tuners comment. After the gains we acknowledged on the dyno in each stage..... First, stock.....open pipe.... headers....then PC-5/AT..... we were expecting more, I think. We only gained a total of 6 RWHP........which perhaps is not bad, but I think he and I was expecting more of that as the result of the PC-5/AT system. Now I am wondering if the SAS could be to blame. I know that Gaspare stated that his SAS was not active at WOT, but rather than think at it as a SAS on in certain rpm range, and thus when it is off, the PC-5/AT is working fine...... I am starting to think that it is not that simple, and DJ seems to back that up, after out conversation yesterday. When the Lambda sensor confuses the AT it simply is not running right. So in essence, I wonder if there would/will be more power to have...... Hmmmmmm..... It's not about the power..... It's not about the power.... It's not...Never mind.
I think the ECU is still trying to maintain the engine in best emissions mode. the DJ is only able to improve the AF in a few places where the where the engine is not running in closed loop mode (ie reading the O2 sensor) because it is calling for the SAS to operate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
Yes, I realize it's for the S1000R but all this discussion of PC-V, Autotune and Wideband O2 sensors got me questioning, "How are the S1000RR tuners working with the ECU. There's no way they are building full-blown race bikes for AMA and WSB without full access to all of the ECUs function. Are they using aftermarket race only ECU or working with the BMS-K (yes, the F800GS and the S1000RR share the same base ECU) and I did some digging.

Has anybody worked with one of these?
I don't think the race bikes have catalysts, thus they don't need SAS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by terryckdbf View Post
Hey EB

I have tried to find where Joel said disconnecting the SAS was detrimental to the bike but cannot find it. I am probably looking in the wrong place. i did find where he said the SAS would skew the O2 reading to the ECU.

" Secondary air would confuse the oxygen sensor were it flowing all the time, so this solenoid valve is switched on by the engine management computer (BMW speak=BMSK) when desirable and off when accurate O2 sensor readings are desired"

He says this also, which does not reference air/fuel ratio.

"This is why you will NEVER improve HP and runability through airbox mods, filter mods, header mods, or fancy slip ons. You may increase noise, or peak HP, but always at the cost of mid range torque."

It would seem that since the ECU controls the valve it determines when it is beneficial to be open or closed.

I am trying to understand how this works. If you were close to me I would give you my GS-911 to find out.

Terry
I would agree with these statements by Joel. However, I would disagree with any statements that say there is a benefit to SAS other than proper mixture for catalyst operation or better emissions.

Guys just to be clear, I'm stating things pretty bluntly. The reality is, I understand control systems fairly well for industrial engines and am applying my knowledge to this automotive world. I think I understand it correctly, but could be wrong. Ask questions I may be wrong.

David
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:56 PM   #359
ebrabaek OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOP Dirt-Rider View Post
"What is fairly high tech is that the air injection actually improves volumetric efficiency (good breathing) of the engine. "

Perhaps it helps scavenging the exhaust on a cat equiped bike, perhaps...

Adding air after burn will result in a bad 02 reading. Nothing high tech there. Erling is having issues because the tune was set with the PAIR in operation,
Actually not. The AT trims were developed in 5'th gear at WOT..... beginning at 3000 rpm. SAS would have been inactive at that point.

now that the extra air is gone the 02 is getting a differant reading and telling the PCV to give a bad mixture, resulting in a bike that runs like crap...


I am willing to bet that once Erling installs the -002 MAP and disables the AT he will have a great running bike.
Perhaps, but not by disabling the AT, but with it active, and accepting the trim levels, to create the right map for the bike....

Takes 2 minutes, unless of course he hid the PCV
I booby trapped the little thing.....
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:59 PM   #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTrider16 View Post
Okay, I think I finally caught up with you guys...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
Yes, I realize it's for the S1000R but all this discussion of PC-V, Autotune and Wideband O2 sensors got me questioning, "How are the S1000RR tuners working with the ECU. There's no way they are building full-blown race bikes for AMA and WSB without full access to all of the ECUs function. Are they using aftermarket race only ECU or working with the BMS-K (yes, the F800GS and the S1000RR share the same base ECU) and I did some digging.

Has anybody worked with one of these?
I don't think the race bikes have catalysts, thus they don't need SAS.
Oh, yes. For sure they do not. Some may be running closed loop setups though.

That was in response to "how do you flash the BMS-K. It was a bit tongue-in-check (but honestly is probably the ultimate tuning setup) but was not suggesting as a way of managing the SAS issues.
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