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Old 09-24-2013, 01:48 PM   #481
terryckdbf
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Fair enough my friend. I believe it should be tested also, just not sure about the test instrument. If a device is designed to alter the air to fuel ratio, we should test for a change in air to fuel ratio. That has been done ad nauseum by many parties all with the same results. Now if we want to test what effect changing the air to fuel ratio has on horsepower, then we can employ the Dyno.

Terry
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Old 09-24-2013, 07:06 PM   #482
roger 04 rt
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Originally Posted by mapa63 View Post
Really interesting, trying to learn this! Do you believe that the DJ target AFR:s, the ones I posted, could be improved upon? Does the AT work well enough to reach those AFR:s? I'm a complete beginner, bought the DJ stuff a year ago mainly to make the low speed, low gear manouvering better and lessen the idle hop-off effect.

Any thoughts are most welcome! The bike runs clearly better with the PCV+AT than without, but it seems as if even more can be achieved?

Best regards,
Mats
I believe that the DJ target AFR curve for Autotune is conservative. It may not matter because few riders will spend enough time at high throttle angles so there will be no Autotune there.

As a comparison, here is a target AFR posted by megasquirt. There is tons of good reading on their site. The target AFRs in the economy/cruise area are probably not appropriate for 2 cylinder motorcycles but the idle and high performance areas are interesting.

http://www.megamanual.com/afrtable.GIF
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Old 09-24-2013, 07:10 PM   #483
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Originally Posted by terryckdbf View Post
Fair enough my friend. I believe it should be tested also, just not sure about the test instrument. If a device is designed to alter the air to fuel ratio, we should test for a change in air to fuel ratio. That has been done ad nauseum by many parties all with the same results. Now if we want to test what effect changing the air to fuel ratio has on horsepower, then we can employ the Dyno.

Terry
The other point about dynos, like the earlier curves in this thread, they almost always only test the wide open throttle column of the fuel table.

What I'd really like to see are torque maps on a resistance dyno for the places on the fuel map that we use the most.
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Old 09-24-2013, 09:05 PM   #484
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Another map.

I know the general discussion is now on specifics of dyno runs, but for what it's worth, here is my PCV map which I did say a while ago I'd upload.
This map came with the bike from the PO. The notes attached to the map loaded in the PCV confirm it was built on a Dyno.
Bike is 2010 F800GS
QD 2 into 1 Headers (no Cat) with Qd muffler with db killer Installed.
K&N Airfilter.
No AT installed and no O2 sensor in exhaust.
Bike runs very well, and pulls from idle without any stumbling. Crisp, rorty sound and no obvious holes in power, but no before and after graphs to quantify any improvements or otherwise.
MPG (KML) reported on bike computer is inaccurate. Computer shows about 4.2 L per 100KM whereas I really use about 5.1L per 100KM = ~20% loss in economy. I do spend a lot of time around 3-3500rpm and 20-50% throttle which explains this.



Back to the main thread....

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Old 09-25-2013, 01:37 AM   #485
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I know the general discussion is now on specifics of dyno runs, but for what it's worth, here is my PCV map which I did say a while ago I'd upload....
Thx! Interesting to compare!
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Old 09-25-2013, 05:59 AM   #486
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Originally Posted by terryckdbf View Post
Fair enough my friend. I believe it should be tested also, just not sure about the test instrument. If a device is designed to alter the air to fuel ratio, we should test for a change in air to fuel ratio. That has been done ad nauseum by many parties all with the same results. Now if we want to test what effect changing the air to fuel ratio has on horsepower, then we can employ the Dyno.

Terry
I would like to add a few items to your observation. I keep forgetting that I am looking at this as a performance mod, along with the idle hop...etc. And I would like to add that if you are stock, then there perhaps really are no need for a LC-1 dyno run, as it is used to improve the "non performance" part of the engine. You can feel if the motor hops less of idle, and such. But with all new products I think the producer should dyno such, for validation purposes. I know the engine loggin is more precise in measuring the afr, than the dyno's sniffer, specially if you retained the CAT, but, it is never the less a good way to validate what you see, and to make sure your reads are correct. Your other observation about the dyno operator is spot on as well..... They need to know what they are doing. And , many do not. Truth is, most do not, and can screw up stuff for you, more than they will help you. That is why I traveled to Colorado, for my runs, and even then after 30 minutes to hunt for rpm hook up, we could not get one, and proceeded with the runs, as we had a long day ahead of us. I am interested in the LC-1, as I believe if you cant kill the BMSK, rather than cripple it, you are better of working with it....rather than against it.
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Old 09-25-2013, 06:57 AM   #487
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Most dyno runs don't have a great deal of meaning, although some do. Essentially they measure part of one column: 100% throttle from 3000 RPM to Max RPM. And often this performance changes from run to run based on heating and other variables.

The AFR tests are often corrupted by air reversion since they use tailpipe probes. More accurate measurements made nearer the exhaust header, and ahead of the catalytic converter show AFRs on stock BMW bikes to be in the mid-upper 12s in stock configuration.

A better dyno test would be to use a steady-state BHP load and to measure torque at each cell, and roll-on off throttle response at each load. Of course this is cost prohibitive. So to satisfy ourselves we make 5-10 second inertial dyno test from 3000-Max at Wide Open Throttle.

Since it is well known that 14.7:1 catalytic-converter-friendly AFRs are 10-12% lean of any engine's Best Power Mixtures, theory and test riders have confirmed on multiple occasions that lambda-shifting is a known/valid way to get a slight performance boost and smoother running throughout the power band. This is especially true in single-O2 sensor twins since there is no way to balance the AFR. Every pilot who flies piston engine aircraft with a mixture control knows that the aircraft flies faster at Best Power, and that the engine stumbles 5-10% lean of that setting--although it is aircraft science, it is not rocket science.

90% of riders who shift lambda 4-8% rich will immediately feel the difference. On our Beemers for some reason, this is especially true in all gears in the 2000-4000 RPM range.

RB
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Old 09-25-2013, 10:36 AM   #488
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Most dyno runs don't have a great deal of meaning, although some do. Essentially they measure part of one column: 100% throttle from 3000 RPM to Max RPM. And often this performance changes from run to run based on heating and other variables.

The AFR tests are often corrupted by air reversion since they use tailpipe probes. More accurate measurements made nearer the exhaust header, and ahead of the catalytic converter show AFRs on stock BMW bikes to be in the mid-upper 12s in stock configuration.

A better dyno test would be to use a steady-state BHP load and to measure torque at each cell, and roll-on off throttle response at each load. Of course this is cost prohibitive. So to satisfy ourselves we make 5-10 second inertial dyno test from 3000-Max at Wide Open Throttle.

Since it is well known that 14.7:1 catalytic-converter-friendly AFRs are 10-12% lean of any engine's Best Power Mixtures, theory and test riders have confirmed on multiple occasions that lambda-shifting is a known/valid way to get a slight performance boost and smoother running throughout the power band. This is especially true in single-O2 sensor twins since there is no way to balance the AFR. Every pilot who flies piston engine aircraft with a mixture control knows that the aircraft flies faster at Best Power, and that the engine stumbles 5-10% lean of that setting--although it is aircraft science, it is not rocket science.

90% of riders who shift lambda 4-8% rich will immediately feel the difference. On our Beemers for some reason, this is especially true in all gears in the 2000-4000 RPM range.

RB
Which is what we did in part, as I know this operator, and have been for years, there were more than just WOT pulls on this day long session. I am a skeptical person. I don't buy anything anyboddy says. I mean no offence towards you or any of the many fine folks here that seems to know what they are talking about...... But merely just me that want a scientific proof, of what your LC-1 is supposed to do..... It is doing. I understand that I am not the norm, and many will take you as an expert, and that is great, but I have seen too many products on the market, that promotes this ,and that, and really does nothing. That said, I am in no way trying to insinuate that for your product, as it looks promising, but merely try to convey why I would like to see a dyno before, and after.
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Old 09-25-2013, 12:27 PM   #489
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Really interesting!

Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
90% of riders who shift lambda 4-8% rich will immediately feel the difference. On our Beemers for some reason, this is especially true in all gears in the 2000-4000 RPM range.RB
So basically, the bike will run "good enough", if I would use only 13,8 AFR and the Autotune actually manages to trim the system so I hit that target? This is approximately what your BMW-AF-XIED would accomplish?

And for max power, I would have to go even richer than DJ:s original 13,2 at some parts.

Seems your solution is very clean, in a simple and reliable way.

Hmmm.... would it be worth it to exchange the PCV+AT with your unit? What would the benefits be? I realize that the PCV+AT isn't perfect, but how much better and in which way better would it get if I mounted your BMW-AF-XIED?
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Old 09-25-2013, 06:31 PM   #490
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So basically, the bike will run "good enough", if I would use only 13,8 AFR and the Autotune actually manages to trim the system so I hit that target? This is approximately what your BMW-AF-XIED would accomplish?

And for max power, I would have to go even richer than DJ:s original 13,2 at some parts.

Seems your solution is very clean, in a simple and reliable way.

Hmmm.... would it be worth it to exchange the PCV+AT with your unit? What would the benefits be? I realize that the PCV+AT isn't perfect, but how much better and in which way better would it get if I mounted your BMW-AF-XIED?
Mike F. Who owns Beemerboneyard had a PCIII USB w/Wideband on his R1100. He took it off and is running a BMW-AF-XIED. Give him a call and ask him why ...

It's worth a note that Autotune is nothing like as sophisticated as the BMSK. As I've mentioned you have to input AFR targets and then you should review the corrections it's come up with and see if they seem reasonable. For example, if it finds that on cell is 23 % more fuel but an adjacent cell only needs 9% to hit the same AFR, does that seem reasonable? In the case of XIED and BMSK, all the cell to cell work has been done by the BMW engineers.

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Old 09-26-2013, 12:18 AM   #491
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Mike F. Who owns Beemerboneyard had a PCIII USB w/Wideband on his R1100. He took it off and is running a BMW-AF-XIED. Give him a call and ask him why ...

It's worth a note that Autotune is nothing like as sophisticated as the BMSK. As I've mentioned you have to input AFR targets and then you should review the corrections it's come up with and see if they seem reasonable. For example, if it finds that on cell is 23 % more fuel but an adjacent cell only needs 9% to hit the same AFR, does that seem reasonable? In the case of XIED and BMSK, all the cell to cell work has been done by the BMW engineers.
Makes perfect sense! I already see such cell anomalies, with large differences between cells next to each other.

Your approach seem smarter! Reusing all those development hours from Bosch and BMW.

Which stuff do I need except the XIED-unit? I will have to re-mount the stock O2-sensor?

I'm in Sweden so calling is a bit difficult. I conclude that his bike runs better with the XIED than with the PC.

Best regards! Thanks for your time!
Mats
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Old 09-26-2013, 05:19 AM   #492
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Makes perfect sense! I already see such cell anomalies, with large differences between cells next to each other.

Your approach seem smarter! Reusing all those development hours from Bosch and BMW.

Which stuff do I need except the XIED-unit? I will have to re-mount the stock O2-sensor?

I'm in Sweden so calling is a bit difficult. I conclude that his bike runs better with the XIED than with the PC.

Best regards! Thanks for your time!
Mats
It is a simple install, and yes you need the original stock sensor. On this page at post 39 Scott shows the install: BMW-AF-XIED install on F800GS.

And if you wonder how Jens, the owner of BoosterPlug feels about mixture richening which I helped him install, read it here: 6% richer using LC-1.
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Old 09-28-2013, 07:40 AM   #493
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First run was after pcv was in, af ratio was prolly even worse than whats shown there.

Really like how it runs now, except for the small issue when starting the bike, It hangs on 9% trottle .
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Old 09-28-2013, 07:55 AM   #494
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Just to be clear, what do the blue and red lines represent?

Stock, PC V with or without Autotune, or BMW-AF-XIED?

Sorry.

Terry
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Old 09-28-2013, 09:15 AM   #495
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Just to be clear, what do the blue and red lines represent?

Stock, PC V with or without Autotune, or BMW-AF-XIED?

Sorry.

Terry
Blue is stock run, red is run after PCV w/o autotune and mapping :)
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