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Old 09-29-2013, 11:21 AM   #511
terryckdbf
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Really wonderful discussion going on, good for all of us. Since this discussion started due to idle hop, throttle response, off throttle control, low speed throttle issues my question is still the same, how does a wot 5th gear run relate?

Regarding the graph just posted how many of us can actually feel 2hp more in a 76hp machine and how many ride in 5th gear at wot? The reason the bike is acceptable to ride now is the low speed throttle control is better probably due to an increase in fuel in these areas all of which has zero to do with the posted dyno results.

I understand what Jeff is saying but is it possible to do anything with the spark tables on a BMSK ECU? Ideally we would but to my knowledge we cannot.

Does anyone have a dyno they can post showing the PC V, Techlusion, and Stock runs from idle to 4,000 RPM?

Isn't a PC V without Autotune changing the fuel map by a set percentage based on the ECU map? Is that different than the Techlusion and if so how?

Just trying to understand.

Terry
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Old 09-29-2013, 12:44 PM   #512
AK650
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"Isn't a PC V without Autotune changing the fuel map by a set percentage based on the ECU map? Is that different than the Techlusion and if so how?"

It changes the fuel table relative to the stock map, yes. Without AT or a air/fuel run on a dyno, or data logging via a wide band sensor, GS911,etc...it's just guesswork. Without a measurable reference of some sort, I don't see how one can accurately tune a bike, no matter the method.

The difference with map based tuning, like the PCV, you can change the fuel in specific regions where it's needed, and leave it alone, everywhere else.

Too bad Dyno-Jet doesn't come out with BMW version of their Power Vision product. Been using it on my Harley, and it's the ultimate, for the DIY home tuner.

Jeff
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Old 09-29-2013, 01:02 PM   #513
AK650
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"I understand what Jeff is saying but is it possible to do anything with the spark tables on a BMSK ECU? Ideally we would but to my knowledge we cannot. "

I can't answer that, and I should not have mentioned spark, as I'm not familiar enough with the BMS-K. All of my home tuning experience is with both the PCV and Power Vision on H-D touring bikes. That said, the principle is the same. Fortunately for Harley tuners, virtually the entire ECM is open to manipulation, via a variety a products like Dyno-Jet, TTS Mastertune, hell, even Harley themselves, sells a race tuner.

Jeff
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Old 09-29-2013, 01:58 PM   #514
terryckdbf
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Thanks Jeff, I appreciate it. There is no doubt a good Dyno operator with enough time can get an acceptable map with the BMSK. However, this map will be after the ECU has made it's choice based on closed loop inputs. In order to use the PC V the O2 sensors are disconnected thus putting the ECU into a different map. The question becomes whether that map is stable. The BMSK is adaptive. I have dual wideband sensors allowing me to record each cylinder. I have disconnected one cylinder Lambda input to the ECU completely. The bike ran like crap in the beginning but started getting rideable as the miles went by. I recorded this with a GS-911 and A/F R logger. The ECU was adapting the disconnected cylinder to match the good one.

Some ECU's are open source, those yield excellent results when all inputs including timing can be manipulated. The BMSK is a totally different animal.

Terry
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Old 09-29-2013, 02:42 PM   #515
AK650
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Terry,

Great info, thanks! Pretty amazing that it'll run on one lung, so to speak. Must have a fall back plan, in case one O2 sensor craps out, it defaults to using the good one as a reference? Wonder raw hat happens with both out?

Unfortunately, with relatively low production numbers, I doubt that folks like Dyno Jet will crack the code of a BMS-K, like they have with Harley's. While the H-D Delphi system isn't open source, there's enough money to be made, to make hacking it worth the expense.

Jeff
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Old 09-29-2013, 06:40 PM   #516
roger 04 rt
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Originally Posted by AK650 View Post
Roger,

While I commend your work, you are either unaware, or choose to ignore how a skilled dyno operator produces a quality dyno tune. For starters, they don't simply stuff a sniffer up the tail pipe. If proper bungs aren't already on the headers, in the proper location, then Rivnuts are installed where they belong, to provide sample ports for wide band sensors. To produce the fuel/spark maps, the engine is run through as many throttle position, rpm, MAP as possible, under varying loads, so the correct adjustments can be made to the fuel/spark tables. The final pull that you see printed out, is done at WOT, in a single gear, in a few seconds, as you say. What you don't see are the hours of data collection done to reach that point.

Is a generic, across the board enrichening device helpful to correct an engine tuned on the lean side....absolutely! However, it cannot possibly match the performance of a QUALITY dyno tune. With it, you can run the engine rich where either low speed manners, or under heavy load/high throttle settings for power. But keep it near Stoich at steady state cruise, and preserve fuel economy, as well as keep emissions low.

Devices like the Xied are great bang for the buck, but to say they outperform a proper dyno tune, coupled with a remap of the fuel tables, is wishful thinking, IMO.

Jeff
Good discussion, many good points.

We're saying much the same thing. My point was that developing a fuel map requires that Wideband samplers are placed in locations where they can accurately measure the exhaust oxygen content. Too many plots of AFR that I've seen obviously do not reflect what is going on. When an AFR curve starts at 18 or 20 to 1, AFRs where the engine won't run, it puts a lot of the data in question.

My other point, what you're saying too, is that it takes hours of skilled measurements of AFR and spark advance trials to develop a proper set of maps.

Autotune is a neat concept with the obvious flaws that you have to know what AFR targets to input, and you have to evaluate cell to cell discontinuities manually. Dynojet seems to promote it as the equal of Adaptive Closed Loop operation, which it is not. The reason I say that is Autotune is concerned with fuel map development (the map design) and Adaptive Closed loop control is concerned with maintaining the map design as actual engine conditions vary.

Another consideration that is usually neglected in the discussion but is on the table here now is that ECU map development usually means Fuel and Spark but the PCV on BMWs only seems to allow fuel map changes. When You see +30% in a cell you have to wonder what spark advance adjustment is required.

Lastly, without O2 sensors connected, the Motronic and BMSK both revert to a Limp Home fueling pattern, together with stray Adaptives that Terryckdbf mentioned, that can make it difficult to get a good tune. In the end, even a poor tune that adds fuel is probably an improvement over EPA restricted fueling.

Regarding the BMW-AF-XIED, which is quite different from the Harley IED devices designed by nightrider, the concept is that BMW has tuned the intake and exhaust plumbing, and built high quality fuel and spark maps and backed them with Adaptive Closed Loop control. A small shift in fueling (4-8%) while keeping BMW's quality maps, seems to deliver significant benefits at a low cost. BMW's main constraint is keeping the catalytic converter doing its thing. The idea of lambda shifting is to relax that constraint thereby getting more of the motor's natural performance.

A good example of what a motor can do without the EPA constraints is the R1100 series. It is one of the few electronic fuel injected motors that BMW shipped in two flavors: Open Loop without a catalytic converter and Closed Loop with a cat. The Closed Loop version has its AFR centered around 14.7:1, many of the bikes surge and balk at light throttle and low rpms. The Open Loop bike is much more driveable and surge free, its AFR is 5% richer at 14.0:1. So to the question, "What would BMW do to make the Oilheads run better if they didn't have to meet EPA specs?", we have the answer: Add 5% to the fueling.

RB
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Old 09-29-2013, 07:30 PM   #517
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Gents........ Great to see the discussion continue. I am traveling,and will spend the next two weeks in Wichita,KS, so I will be away from the bike. I am getting anxious to try to open the intake,and have found a supposedly good dyno operator in el,paso. The makers of msd ignition. As soon as I have a chance, I will give it a run with, and with out the air box cover on.
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Old 09-30-2013, 01:26 AM   #518
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Progress...

Hi guys!

Super interesting discussion, very educational!

I've continued to experiment with the PCV and AT. I've changed target AFR from typically 13.2-13,5, to 13,5-13,8 broadening the "cruising range". From about 3250 rpms to 5000, for throttle 5-40%. At 2% I've kept 13,2 and over 40% throttle it's 13,2-13,5. The bike just runs better and better and I see the trims the AT develops to reach the new AFRs. Seems to work good enough. Probably unnecessary rich and increased fuel consumption, bit the bike runs great!

I see the challenge however. DJs intial AFRs are for max power. I have no way of knowing which target AFRs that are best, regardless of if I go for power, economy, driveability or a mix. I probably loose more economy than I really would like to, gaining some power I don't really need.

A slight enrichment all over, simple and low cost, would improve driveability and keep most of the economy. Very nice.

Does anyone have the "perfect" AFRs for this lovely engine? :-)

Best regards,
Mats P
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Old 09-30-2013, 04:02 AM   #519
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You could try leaner mixtures in the 0-2% columns, 13.5-13.8. At high throttle angles you could go to with a 12.9 to 13.5. I suggest this based on the measured AFR numbers I've seen on my 1150 with 8% overall enrichment.

Consider resetting the BMSK Adaptatiion Values now so that they don't get accidentally reset later, messing up your Autotune.
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Old 09-30-2013, 05:47 AM   #520
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Consider resetting the BMSK Adaptatiion Values now so that they don't get accidentally reset later, messing up your Autotune.
RB
Thanks Roger!

How do I reset?

DJs target AFRs, does anyone know how "good" they are and how much effort they have put into determining them?

Your suggestions makes sense, is this common knowledge, educated guesses or do you know the subject better than DJ?

Best regards,
Mats P
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Old 09-30-2013, 06:19 AM   #521
terryckdbf
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Erling

That will be an interesting dyno post to say the least and I look forward to it. Based on what I have seen so far, nothing would surprise me. Only a finite amount of air can go to the cylinder (unless we compress it somehow with Turbo or Supercharger), no matter the airbox size. Airboxes today are more than adequate in this regard. If there are sensors, mass air, temp, etc. in the top of the box cover then we may start screwing with ECU decisions if we simply remove the cover and/or filter.

Basically, with a few differences here and there, while we may disagree how to do so, we agree adding some fuel greatly enhances the driveability, idle hop, low speed handling, abruptly closing the throttle issue, throttle chop, whatever we want to call it. In "old school" terms, we are rejetting the carburetor.

The question then becomes how best to do that, before or after the ECU has done its thing. The Power Commander disconnects the Lambda sensors and alters whatever decision the ECU has made to reach a desired result. The XIED utilizes the Lambda sensors allowing the ECU to reach a desired result. The XIED is less costly, needs no computer, is true plug and play. If the Power Commander could alter timing or keep closed loop operation that would be a different ball game but as it stands now that is not the case.

If we are talking about low speed rideability, throttle control, etc. for the life of me I cannot wrap my head around how a wide open throttle in 5th gear Dyno run remotely relates. If we want to add more than a token 2 or 3 horsepower to a BMW we need to go inside the motor to do it.

Be well.

Terry
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Old 09-30-2013, 06:35 AM   #522
roger 04 rt
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Originally Posted by mapa63 View Post
Thanks Roger!

How do I reset?

DJs target AFRs, does anyone know how "good" they are and how much effort they have put into determining them?

Your suggestions makes sense, is this common knowledge, educated guesses or do you know the subject better than DJ?

Best regards,
Mats P
Mats,
I'm not sure how to reset the BMSK on your bike. It can be done with a GS-911 but I don't know if disconnecting the battery does it or not. Also note that some bikes don't run very well for a while after a reset.

The Dynojet AFR targets look generic to me, one size fits all. It would be a good question to ask them.

I don't know more about this than Dynojet but they are meeting the needs of hundreds of different motor vehicles. My knowledge on this is limited to measurement and observations on r1100, r1150, r1200, f800s using the LC-1 as a measurement tool. That, and study of various books on the subject. I would say that there is a good body of conventional wisdom on this for naturally-aspirated spark-ignition engines. A good read if you don't have a book is the megasquirt megamanual, http://www.megamanual.com/mtabcon.htm. There is tons of good info on tuning there. Start with the tuning sections. Find the section titled principles of tuning.
RB
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Old 09-30-2013, 08:31 AM   #523
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Q & a

I've asked DJ how they determined the AFRs their base map contains. Interesting to see the answer!
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Old 09-30-2013, 09:06 AM   #524
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I know that its a bad idea, but I did it anyway. I made the assumption that the PCV has the same functionality on a BMW as it does on a H-D.......that is now obviously a very poor assumption on my part. Doesn't look like DJ has put a whole lot of effort into the BMS-K. Too bad. Something simple like the XIED may be the way to go. However, if I richened the mixture across the board like that, I believe that I'd go all the way, and get the cat converter out of the exhaust system altogether. If the mixture is too rich for it to function efficiently, it may as well not be there at all. Then there are warranty issues to think about. Magnusson-Moss Act or not.

Jeff
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Old 09-30-2013, 09:34 AM   #525
terryckdbf
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Jeff

Please stay with us on this, your knowledge and insight are very valuable. No apology needed, we all assume things we should not. Your comment regarding the Cat is true, if I were doing anything with the exhaust it would be gone, provided I did not live in an emissions area.

Be well.

Terry
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