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Old 09-30-2013, 10:13 AM   #526
roger 04 rt
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Originally Posted by AK650 View Post
I know that its a bad idea, but I did it anyway. I made the assumption that the PCV has the same functionality on a BMW as it does on a H-D.......that is now obviously a very poor assumption on my part. Doesn't look like DJ has put a whole lot of effort into the BMS-K. Too bad. Something simple like the XIED may be the way to go. However, if I richened the mixture across the board like that, I believe that I'd go all the way, and get the cat converter out of the exhaust system altogether. If the mixture is too rich for it to function efficiently, it may as well not be there at all. Then there are warranty issues to think about. Magnusson-Moss Act or not.

Jeff
Ditto to Terry's comments.

For those following the thread, nightrider.com invented a very clever method for shifting lambda on the Harley Davidson Delphi ECU. It was named the IED for inline enrichment device. It and its successor the XIED were passive resistive devices. Also in the product family was a microprocessor based AF-XIED.

Unfortunately the Motronic and BMS-K thwarted all of nightrider's stock Harley devices. However, knowing that the LC-1 worked, we were able to devise new software for the AF-XIED which digitizes, filters, transforms and reformats the stock BMW O2 sensor in a way that makes the BMW-AF-XIED look to the Motronic/BMS-K like a regular O2 sensor with variable AFR.

Although the market is small (I guess) relative to the Harley's Steve at nightrider invested design and manufacturing resources to come up with the BMW device, which is much much easier to implement than something like an innovate LC-1.

RB
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Old 09-30-2013, 10:26 AM   #527
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Ditto to Terry's comments.

For those following the thread, nightrider.com invented a very clever method for shifting lambda on the Harley Davidson Delphi ECU. It was named the IED for inline enrichment device. It and its successor the XIED were passive resistive devices. Also in the product family was a microprocessor based AF-XIED.

Unfortunately the Motronic and BMS-K thwarted all of nightrider's stock Harley devices. However, knowing that the LC-1 worked, we were able to devise new software for the AF-XIED which digitizes, filters, transforms and reformats the stock BMW O2 sensor in a way that makes the BMW-AF-XIED look to the Motronic/BMS-K like a regular O2 sensor with variable AFR.

Although the market is small (I guess) relative to the Harley's Steve at nightrider invested design and manufacturing resources to come up with the BMW device, which is much much easier to implement than something like an innovate LC-1.

RB
Thanks to both Terry and Roger; I'll definitely stay on this. ECMs and tuning just fascinate me to no end. Lots of learning to do, when it comes to the BMS-K! Just ordered a GS911 yesterday, to get the learning process started. Would also like to perhaps weld an additional bung on my exhaust, so that I can have a real time AFR meter, and a means to datalog wide band AFR's.

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Old 09-30-2013, 10:32 AM   #528
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Thanks to both Terry and Roger; I'll definitely stay on this. ECMs and tuning just fascinate me to no end. Lots of learning to do, when it comes to the BMS-K! Just ordered a GS911 yesterday, to get the learning process started. Would also like to perhaps weld an additional bung on my exhaust, so that I can have a real time AFR meter, and a means to datalog wide band AFR's.

Jeff
If you weld in the second bung and buy an LC-1 or LC-2, it is only a little more work to connect the output if the Wideband controller to the input of the BMSk and have programmable mixture control ...

Then you can measure, plot and control your mixture. It is also a tremendous diagnostic tool. Here's the guy who put it in the 800S with my help. http://guzzitech.dk/category/bmwf800s/
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Old 09-30-2013, 12:19 PM   #529
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Talking Dynojets answer - how they determined AFR:s for F800GS

"The recommendations that I have already given to you for Target AFR comes from general knowledge of tuning and based off research that we have done on many different vehicle models."

Reassuring?
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Old 09-30-2013, 04:18 PM   #530
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Erling

That will be an interesting dyno post to say the least and I look forward to it. Based on what I have seen so far, nothing would surprise me. Only a finite amount of air can go to the cylinder (unless we compress it somehow with Turbo or Supercharger), no matter the airbox size. Airboxes today are more than adequate in this regard. If there are sensors, mass air, temp, etc. in the top of the box cover then we may start screwing with ECU decisions if we simply remove the cover and/or filter.

Basically, with a few differences here and there, while we may disagree how to do so, we agree adding some fuel greatly enhances the driveability, idle hop, low speed handling, abruptly closing the throttle issue, throttle chop, whatever we want to call it. In "old school" terms, we are rejetting the carburetor.

The question then becomes how best to do that, before or after the ECU has done its thing. The Power Commander disconnects the Lambda sensors and alters whatever decision the ECU has made to reach a desired result. The XIED utilizes the Lambda sensors allowing the ECU to reach a desired result. The XIED is less costly, needs no computer, is true plug and play. If the Power Commander could alter timing or keep closed loop operation that would be a different ball game but as it stands now that is not the case.

If we are talking about low speed rideability, throttle control, etc. for the life of me I cannot wrap my head around how a wide open throttle in 5th gear Dyno run remotely relates. If we want to add more than a token 2 or 3 horsepower to a BMW we need to go inside the motor to do it.

Be well.

Terry
I know Roger disagrees with this.... But IMHO the PCM-5/AT combo, does in fact run the fueling in closed loop, above 2% throttle. My thinking on the intake is that the big 800 cc motor has to breathe through a pair of very small ports in the inlet of the snorkel. The square area is less than on my 470cc thumper. It is just a hunch I have at this point.....and again nothing will be validated, unless the dyno says so. Simple as that...... And I might be wrong, but we shall see.
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ebrabaek screwed with this post 09-30-2013 at 04:26 PM
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Old 09-30-2013, 04:25 PM   #531
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Gents...... Again, I would like to direct the attention towards the fact that this is a DJ PC-5/AT thread....... I am excited about the development of the other product, but there is a separate thread going, and that is where that belongs. Crossing all you want, but as you have come to realize by now, is that both Roger and Terry are developing that unit, and I would appreciate if we could keep that discussion to a minimum, or better yet bring it over in the appropriate thread. Thanks....
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Old 09-30-2013, 06:42 PM   #532
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Erling

I respect that request and understand the intent. I was commenting on a Dyno chart & learning from Jeff. I apologize sincerely and will stay on topic.

It should be pointed out Roger and I have never met. We have talked on the phone less than 5 minutes total, regarding my LC-1 installation. That was in March, way before the BMW-AF-XIED was considered viable. Neither have I had any contact with the Nightrider crew. Not that it is anyone's business, I have no money involved in any way. Roger and I have never discussed the matter, I have no interest in the manufacturing, marketing, or sale of the product nor do I receive any benefit whatsoever. I have not been offered a "free" sample, have not requested such, do not expect one. I pay what you pay. Roger did not seek me out, I sought his knowledge regarding the settings to try on the LC-1. Basically we speak the same language when dealing with motors, I have some limited knowledge of building them and know a little bit regarding A/F R. I was one of the first, if not the first, to install an LC-1 on a 2011 GSA and needed his help, he was kind enough to do so. I have gathered a ton of data on how the LC-1 works on an R1200. I have had no input what so ever on the XIED, I can test it, I can gather data from it, I have no idea how to build it. Every comment I have made is based on my testing the PC and Techlusion. If we could replace, change, or hack the ECU the Power Commander would be a viable option. It just makes a lot more sense to work with the ECU than against it, we get the results for a lot less money. That is a view you do not share, a healthy debate.

Anyone reading Roger's Wideband project from the get go will find a person who has helped everyone that asked, whether they were using a PC, Techlusion, or Wideband including a few post ago. His knowledge dwarfs mine, he does not need me.

I know you did not mean anything personal, I just wanted to get it out there.

Good luck with your upcoming test, again, I apologize.

Terry
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:10 AM   #533
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Hallo to everybody!!

Since I'm close to waste my knobby tyres (Pirelli Scorpion Rally), as last act of their life could be interesting to dyno my BMSK reflash...

On this afternoon, I'll go to a properly equipped Dynojet dealer to ask about feasibility, cost, etc.

Have You some advice to carry out this test, over the Dynojet standard? Something to be aware of?

PS - I do apologise for my absence, but it's somehow connected to covered mileage... 4000 km during the last year have to be translated in English as "shame on me"...
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Old 10-01-2013, 05:00 AM   #534
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Bluhduh

Quote:
Originally Posted by terryckdbf View Post
Erling

I respect that request and understand the intent. I was commenting on a Dyno chart & learning from Jeff. I apologize sincerely and will stay on topic.

It should be pointed out Roger and I have never met. We have talked on the phone less than 5 minutes total, regarding my LC-1 installation. That was in March, way before the BMW-AF-XIED was considered viable. Neither have I had any contact with the Nightrider crew. Not that it is anyone's business, I have no money involved in any way. Roger and I have never discussed the matter, I have no interest in the manufacturing, marketing, or sale of the product nor do I receive any benefit whatsoever. I have not been offered a "free" sample, have not requested such, do not expect one. I pay what you pay. Roger did not seek me out, I sought his knowledge regarding the settings to try on the LC-1. Basically we speak the same language when dealing with motors, I have some limited knowledge of building them and know a little bit regarding A/F R. I was one of the first, if not the first, to install an LC-1 on a 2011 GSA and needed his help, he was kind enough to do so. I have gathered a ton of data on how the LC-1 works on an R1200. I have had no input what so ever on the XIED, I can test it, I can gather data from it, I have no idea how to build it. Every comment I have made is based on my testing the PC and Techlusion. If we could replace, change, or hack the ECU the Power Commander would be a viable option. It just makes a lot more sense to work with the ECU than against it, we get the results for a lot less money. That is a view you do not share, a healthy debate.

Anyone reading Roger's Wideband project from the get go will find a person who has helped everyone that asked, whether they were using a PC, Techlusion, or Wideband including a few post ago. His knowledge dwarfs mine, he does not need me.

I know you did not mean anything personal, I just wanted to get it out there.

Good luck with your upcoming test, again, I apologize.

Terry
No worries Terry. It is inevitable to cross cover these items, but it was really meant to better both subjects, from a forum, and perhaps search perspective. You see if we start pouring in a lot of knowledge regarding other f/i enhancers..... They will be harder to sniff, and find, as opposed to them in their own thread title. I think cross linking would be, and is great. But as this thread grows, I would like to see the Afixed grow as we'll, to substantiate that system. I have no issues with your and Rogers involvement of the other system. That is a matter of forum rules ( I don't think you can promote your product unless you are a vendor.....or so) if I in any way insinuated any hostility, it was not intended, and for that I am sorry. I hope both you and roger continues to offer your valuable input here.
Cheers.
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Old 10-01-2013, 05:01 AM   #535
ebrabaek OP
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Originally Posted by Gaspare View Post
Hallo to everybody!!

Since I'm close to waste my knobby tyres (Pirelli Scorpion Rally), as last act of their life could be interesting to dyno my BMSK reflash...

On this afternoon, I'll go to a properly equipped Dynojet dealer to ask about feasibility, cost, etc.

Have You some advice to carry out this test, over the Dynojet standard? Something to be aware of?

PS - I do apologise for my absence, but it's somehow connected to covered mileage... 4000 km during the last year have to be translated in English as "shame on me"...
Can't wait to see it..... Welcome back.
Ciao.
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Old 10-02-2013, 05:26 AM   #536
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No way.... with these tyres, I mean.
Even deadly worn-out, they are not suitable to dyno test...
Best is to wait until shall be available a rear tyre with a different attitude, just off for a replacement from another customer...

Anyway: we planned 3 launches @ WOT, 3 @ 90%, 3 @ 60%.

To be continued...
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Old 10-02-2013, 07:20 AM   #537
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In a couple earlier posts we were discussing tailpipe O2 sensing and another poster mentioned that a better method is to put an O2 sensor port into an extra bung or if that doesn't exist, add a port. If you care about AFR measurement, I would consider that.

Here is an example in the video of the conventional tailpipe test. www.bbcracing.com/dyno.html

RB
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Old 10-02-2013, 07:53 AM   #538
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For a while now, I've made the point that many Dyno Pulls, misread the AFR. Often, when tailpipe O2 measurement is used, a combination of low airflow at low RPM and air reversion (bursts of fresh air entering the tailpipe as the exhaust pulses exit) leads to a very lean reading at the start of the pull, and a lower than actual reading of AFR.

Here is a plot of AFR from my stock intake, stock exhaust with catalytic converter, R1150RT. We've measured many other BMW fuel injected motorcycles and this curve is typical of all of them. My motorcycle runs Open and Closed Loop 6% richer than stock using the Innovate Motorsports LC-1.

The conditions were: 5th gear, rolling down a stretch of highway at 1800 RPM, level ground, roll the throttle fully, accelerate for about 10 seconds, to 100 MPH. You can see that the AFR steadily increases from 13.8:1 to 12.1:1. If my bike were stock, that would be from 14.7:1 to 12.8:1. This is the BMW fueling strategy yielding a very well behaved, potent AFR increase.

You can also see when I let go of the throttle, Overrun Fuel Cutoff kick in, and then a prompt return to Closed Loop operation and 13.8:1.

This is what the dyno pull should show as well, with a careful location of the WB O2 probe.
RB


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Old 10-02-2013, 11:42 AM   #539
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Hi Erling, the BMW-AF-XIED will be available at Beemerboneyard next week. Price with cables is about $200. One adjustment control but no computer needed. It works with the BMSK and leaves it fully functional.

Jscottyk has been beta testing it this summer. Same great results as on the 1100, 1150, and 1200.
RB
I think the Dynojet PC-5 with Autotune offers some interesting tuning options for those so inclined. If you are looking for very similar results with a bit easier installation and setup the BMW-AF-XIED is something to be seriously considered.

To limit the thread drift, I'll give a BMW-AF-XIED beta update over at the Wideband thread.

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Old 10-02-2013, 11:01 PM   #540
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2013 F800GS
8000km
Remus Hexacone, restrictor/silencer still fitted
Unifilter hi flow foam air filter
Remus catless header
PCV and Auto Tune

Initial curve is the above fitted, with the map downloaded from PC website for hexacone and air filter -No Auto Tune
Second curve is custom tune after a day on the dyno - No Auto Tune
Not a big difference power wise (~2kw), but a big difference in mid level response.

For what its worth, my "tuner" pulled the airbox apart, looked at all the air bleed system, and based on his experience decided it did not need plugging.

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