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Old 02-12-2009, 04:04 PM   #31
viola-tor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn
R&R was discontinued over five years ago. There are used and pirated copies floating around (e.g., CL, Ebay, friends willing to make a copy for you, etc.).

I'd never call it the "preferred" map. It's old and spotty in coverage. It doesn't auto-route either. But its cheap and doesn't have the issues of getting it unlocked. City Navigator is generally the best overall database to get and it auto-routes, but its not cheap and you have to go through the unlock hassles. In my experience CN handles backroads as least as well as anything else in Garmin's maps.

- Mark
Thanks Mark. I'm a frustrated GPS noob whose trying to get a handle on all this, there's a lot of info! I've spent many hours searching and reading the posts here and I'm still lost... Ironic, since I have a GPS and all!

Would you say the CN would be suitable for dual-sporting? I want to be able to use my GPS (a Garming 60 csx) for a variety of activities from hiking to trail riding to city navigation. I realize that I may need to buy multiple maps packages to accomdate all this, but it'd be nice if there was some overlap, and the installed basemap is pretty much worthless. Knowing this would you recommend the CN over the '08 Topo?
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:22 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by The Fist
No -- I havent been able to install just the map database for R&R...how do I install just the maps, but not the whole program ?



Can anyone else verify that this option is available on the V?

(BTW -- thanks alot Mark...very informative )
You just keep installing each new map set with Mapsource. It is smart enough to know not to go backwards in revision.
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:54 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by viola-tor
Would you say the CN would be suitable for dual-sporting?
Absolutely. It's all I use for dual-sporting. For roads (both major and minor), CN is it, especially if you want to auto-route. Everything else is pretty much oriented towards hiking or water sports. The Topos are oriented towards hiking where the contours are important. In certain areas, you might find a few backwoods roads/trails that CN won't have, but they're often so wildly out of date, its impossible to find them. Only the 24K National Park Topos auto-route.

When it comes to an auto-routing GPS to be used primarily on the road network, your supplemental road maps generally start and end with CN.

- Mark
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Old 02-12-2009, 06:05 PM   #34
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If you can get a hold of R&R, IMO it's a very valuable tool. Yes CN auto routes and has a more up to date POI database, but for planning purposes R&R has it beat for detail and versatility. Here's a sample of what I mean

CN2009



And here's R&R at the same scale

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Old 02-12-2009, 06:50 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Steve W
If you can get a hold of R&R, IMO it's a very valuable tool. Yes CN auto routes and has a more up to date POI database, but for planning purposes R&R has it beat for detail and versatility.
Sorry, but your screen shot comparison is bogus. CN and R&R show different levels of detail at the same zoom level. You were zoomed far enough out in the CN example that underlying detail wasn't being shown. Here's a view of the detail in CN for this same area if you zoom a little further in:



If you look very closely, you see many areas where CN shows a lot more roads than R&R. R&R does tend to show more waterways and natural features - as I said, CN is a road-oriented mapset, not a hiking or boating one.

- Mark
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Old 02-12-2009, 09:12 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn
Sorry, but your screen shot comparison is bogus. CN and R&R show different levels of detail at the same zoom level. You were zoomed far enough out in the CN example that underlying detail wasn't being shown. Here's a view of the detail in CN for this same area if you zoom a little further in:
- Mark
That was exactly my point. I can use R&R at a reasonable zoom level when planning. I don't have to be zoomed in to a 1 mile scale to see the road detail. To be fair you should have included the R&R mapset using 6.15. Here's the same comparo at .7 miles.





I'm still seeing more detail in the R&R in this instance. Different locations will vary of course.
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Old 02-12-2009, 09:21 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Steve W
I can use R&R at a reasonable zoom level when planning. I don't have to be zoomed in to a 1 mile scale to see the road detail.
I don't particularly like Garmin's tradeoff between zoom and detail in CN either, but buying a mapset based on this criteria is a little like buying a car based on the color of its tire jack. The tradeoff between hiding and showing detail at each zoom level is really just a subtle tradeoff they made in the software between avoiding clutter and showing detail. They moved the slider a little differently in CN vs. R&R. Hardly a big reason to choose one over the other.

Don't get me wrong - having R&R around is not a bad idea and if you don't want to spend the money on CN, you can get R&R for very low cost (or even free if you don't mind using pirated software). But for someone getting their first mapset for an auto-routing GPS, the choice is really a no-brainer - get CN.

Edit: After reading this, I thought I might as well pull an old 3.02 R&R I haven't used in a couple years, install it to my latest MapSource, and make some side-by-side comparisons. And I was too harsh in my assessment above - R&R does have a nicer presentation when in planning mode and I prefer that it shows a lot more sensitivity to the "Map Detail" menu selections - CN really is pretty bad in this regard. I still think CN is the way to go for an auto-routing GPS, but R&R is a nice adjunct and if you can find a cheap copy and are don't mind driving point-to-point routes, its quite workable.

- Mark

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Old 02-13-2009, 10:17 AM   #38
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Like every GPS question on this forum, the question is not complete. Which GPS, which map set, which battery, Hard wire, etc. should I buy?

What is always missing is the real question, "what do you want to do" with what ever it is.

"I want to ride my XR200 on forest back roads and old log skids and then hike to some off route locations" or "I want to ride my GS1200 on a few high quality gravel roads and want full auto-routing with data on all gas, food, and motel POIs". Nothing about the answers to any question would be the same for these two guys.

Almost every answer I read is the answer to what the responder does not what the questiner wants to do.

Then there is personal choice, I went on a trip with a friend with an HP and an old GPSV with City Nav. What a combinition, but it works for him! We came to a dead end (poor planning) he auto-routed to where we wanted to go, I zoomed R & R out and picked my own route. It is all a amatter of choice not good vs better.
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:26 PM   #39
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On the V, YES you can!

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn
On how to select which maps are visible on the GPS, on a 60CS you go to the map screen, press Menu, and select Setup Map from the menu. You then get a menu to enable or disable any particular map. This may not be applicable to the V though.





Can anyone else verify that this option is available on the V?
The steps are different than on a 60cs but yes, the same function is available!

First you need to be sure the software is installed properly. Remember R&R is very old technology, XP and Vista weren't even on the drawing board when R&R was discontinued. I have had good luck installing MapSource products in the order of their release, oldest first and rebooting between installs. Once the lasted version of MapSource you own is installed then download a recent MapSource update and install. Most are still using ver. 6.13.7 as the newer ones have some bugs. You may have to search to fine the file as Garmin probably doesn't have it any more. At this point you should to download and install the latest GPS V firmware upgrade as there was a new one released several months ago.

A big hint here: the early MapSource products installed from a CD and only installed the software utility not the map data which remained on the CD. The installed utility then looked to the CD drive to retrieve detailed map data as needed which required the CD be in the drive and slowed the process.
To avoid this copy the whole install CD to a folder you create in the root on your hard drive and run the install from that location. MapSource will then look to that location for the map data and no more CD juggling. Newer products (CS) don't have this issue.

If the different MapSource products have installed properly, they will be listed in the drop down menu box upper left of the MS interface just under the "File", "Edit" commands. If it doesn't show, it didn't install.

Select all the map segments from all the map product you wish to load keeping the total under 19mb (lower portion of the MAPS Tab) and transfer to the GPS at one time. You can not add to maps already on the GPS. You must start from scratch each time.

The GPS uses a hierarchy when choosing which to display. To override this hierarchy:
While on the GPS Map page press "Menu", then select 'MapSource Info" and "Enter". Once on the "MapSource Info" you can select individual map segments to show or hide but it can be had to know what is what so....
From the "MapSource Info" page press "Menu" and a list of the different map products install will be displayed allowing you to select what is displayed. "Enable" = show & "Disable" = hide. If you have more than one product enabled the GPS will use the default hierarchy to decide which will show.

Bruce

PS; If you want to use Topo on your V you can control the display of the contour lines and even hide them completely, wish my 60CSx would do that!

mcnut screwed with this post 02-13-2009 at 12:32 PM
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Old 02-13-2009, 11:18 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Countdown
Like every GPS question on this forum, the question is not complete. Which GPS, which map set, which battery, Hard wire, etc. should I buy?

What is always missing is the real question, "what do you want to do" with what ever it is.


Almost every answer I read is the answer to what the responder does not what the questiner wants to do.
Agreed, that's the rub! Being a total GPS noob, I don't know what I'll like/dislike with the products out there, but here's what I want: Ultimate Versatility. I want to dual sport roads and trails, I want to burn up twisties, find gas in the sticks, get directions for the bike night address in town, have topo for hiking mountains, snowboarding, geocaching, and a bunch of other stuff I haven't done yet, like fan-boating in the everglades or flying a glider, plus being able to use it in the car if I feel like it. And I'm a cheap bastard. I find $400 in mapping software hard to swallow (CN, TOPO America, Detailed topo SD cards, ect...) on top of the cost of the GPS unit ($350 for my 60 CSX, plus RAM mount, power cord, ect). I could purchase A LOT of nice paper maps and a compass for $800 bucks.

These zoom level comparisons are interesting, thanks for the debate! I don't like to plan my route ahead of time, I like to decide the day of or on the fly, so having a "big picture" seems important to me. I'd like to be "zoomed out" but still be able to see connecting roads/trails, just like when looking at a paper map, maybe it's too much to ask...

I guess I'll start with the CN DVD and see how I like it. Sound reasonable?
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Old 02-13-2009, 11:44 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viola-tor
I don't like to plan my route ahead of time, I like to decide the day of or on the fly, so having a "big picture" seems important to me. I'd like to be "zoomed out" but still be able to see connecting roads/trails, just like when looking at a paper map, maybe it's too much to ask...
GPS map is no different than paper map. What kind of resolution could you get with a 1"x2" paper map? You need to carry a Lap Top on you handle bar if you want to plan a trip on the fly. GPS is worthless for that purpose if riding off road. Most of us draw tracks ahead of time they go ride. What GPS really works best for is to follow a previous ride either by you or something you got on the Internet.
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Old 02-14-2009, 07:58 AM   #42
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Countdown is 100% correct.
I navigated the Continental Divide ride using my 60Cx and BigDog's tracks/routes. I pretty much knew we were on the right path, but I couldn't have told you what state we were in half the time So much for the "big picture". Maps work best for this (or a big computer screen).

IMHO all you need is City Navigator and either Roads & Rec or Topo. Hardly 400 bucks of maps.
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Old 02-14-2009, 09:05 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viola-tor
I don't like to plan my route ahead of time, I like to decide the day of or on the fly, so having a "big picture" seems important to me. I'd like to be "zoomed out" but still be able to see connecting roads/trails, just like when looking at a paper map, maybe it's too much to ask...
In a way, it is too much to ask. The reason is that a paper may has the size and resolution of an extremely bright 20,000 x 10,00 pixel display while the GPS has to come up with a representation that is readable on a 160 x 240 pixel display with a battery life of 20 hours.

Just to complicate things further, I doubt MapSource and the GPS use the same settings and scheme for handling detail. Keep in mind that MapSource is an application designed to provide maps to literally hundreds of different GPS's that range from the very tiny/simple to the very big/elaborate. So each GPS's ability to display detail is specific to that GPS and is something that the GPS may handle much differently than MapSource. So our previous comparisons may only apply to how maps appear in MapSource, not how they will behave on the GPS.

With today's technology, GPS's are an adjunct to paper maps, not a replacement. And as others have said, they totally suck at the "big picture". People have compared navigating solely with a GPS to shopping at Blockbuster in a wheelchair looking at things through a 12" paper towel roll.

Quote:
I guess I'll start with the CN DVD and see how I like it. Sound reasonable?
For an auto-routing GPS, that's definitely where I would start and where most would start. But if you can get a deal on a cheap/freebie R&R you could stick your toe in the water without spending much. But it won't auto-route.

- Mark
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Old 02-14-2009, 11:44 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn
In a way, it is too much to ask. The reason is that a paper may has the size and resolution of an extremely bright 20,000 x 10,00 pixel display while the GPS has to come up with a representation that is readable on a 160 x 240 pixel display with a battery life of 20 hours.

Just to complicate things further, I doubt MapSource and the GPS use the same settings and scheme for handling detail. Keep in mind that MapSource is an application designed to provide maps to literally hundreds of different GPS's that range from the very tiny/simple to the very big/elaborate. So each GPS's ability to display detail is specific to that GPS and is something that the GPS may handle much differently than MapSource. So our previous comparisons may only apply to how maps appear in MapSource, not how they will behave on the GPS.

With today's technology, GPS's are an adjunct to paper maps, not a replacement. And as others have said, they totally suck at the "big picture". People have compared navigating solely with a GPS to shopping at Blockbuster in a wheelchair looking at things through a 12" paper towel roll.



For an auto-routing GPS, that's definitely where I would start and where most would start. But if you can get a deal on a cheap/freebie R&R you could stick your toe in the water without spending much. But it won't auto-route.

- Mark
Thanks all, this is very interesting. I think you've sold me on the CN for starters. Anyone wanna burn me a copy of R&R???

I still need to learn to use this contraption, then I'll probably have a much better understanding of it's strengths and weaknesses. I have a feeling I'm going to like it (like getting a cell phone for the first time, remember that?), but I'll hopefully always have a "big picture" paper map on hand too.
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Old 02-14-2009, 02:37 PM   #45
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Dive in. The water's fine, but you do have to learn how to swim.

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