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Old 02-25-2013, 05:14 PM   #16
RustyStuff
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There is a right time and place for everything.

I see nothing wrong with rideing at a quick pace, on a deserted road that you know well, when it's devoid of traffic and the conditions are good for it. I don't often speed when the "limit" is 60 though, the roads around here are not in that good of shape.
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Old 02-25-2013, 06:49 PM   #17
DAKEZ
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Talking Speed to be safe...

IMO speeding is the safest way to ride. Not excessive speed mind you but it is a very rare thing for me to be riding at or below the speed limit.

I ride Assertively. What does that mean? I go slightly faster than the flow of traffic over 95% of the time. (even when that flow is well over the limit)

I NEVER need to be the fastest vehicle on the road. In fact I prefer if a few others speed on ahead to be my pilot car.

Why do I think faster than traffic is the safe way?

First: It puts the rider in control vs. being at the mercy of what is coming from behind.
Second: All those vehicles that you have just passed (in a reasonable and prudent manner) now know you are there which reduces the risk of being rear-ended in the event of a traffic slowdown in places where lane sharing is NOT allowed.

I do not condone Excessive Speed. Like others have said: "Take It To The Track"

Always ride reasonable and prudent to road conditions, visibility and traffic.

Be Polite BUT BE ASSERTIVE!!! (and live to ride another day)
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:09 PM   #18
hamiamham
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The last comprehensive accident study - at least that I can find - in the US is the aptly named "Hurt Report" - after Dr. Hurt who ran the study. It can be found here: http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~john/vfr/hurt.html / Sadly it was published in 1981 from data collected in the mid-70's.

The Europeans did a more recent study and it can be found here: http://www.maids-study.eu/pdf/MAIDS2.pdf

There are lies, damn lies and statistics but I think each have a lot of value.

Read the executive summary of each.
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:31 PM   #19
farmerstu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
IMO speeding is the safest way to ride. Not excessive speed mind you but it is a very rare thing for me to be riding at or below the speed limit.

I ride Assertively. What does that mean? I go slightly faster than the flow of traffic over 95% of the time. (even when that flow is well over the limit)

I NEVER need to be the fastest vehicle on the road. In fact I prefer if a few others speed on ahead to be my pilot car.

Why do I think faster than traffic is the safe way?

First: It puts the rider in control vs. being at the mercy of what is coming from behind.
Second: All those vehicles that you have just passed (in a reasonable and prudent manner) now know you are there which reduces the risk of being rear-ended in the event of a traffic slowdown in places where lane sharing is NOT allowed.

I do not condone Excessive Speed. Like others have said: "Take It To The Track"

Always ride reasonable and prudent to road conditions, visibility and traffic.

Be Polite BUT BE ASSERTIVE!!! (and live to ride another day)
that is exactly my thoughts. in addition in most situations i prefer the far left lane and if at all possible i keep the car on my right in front or behind me but i never sit with one on my 3. good post dakez
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:42 PM   #20
windmill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.G View Post

IMO, the term "speeding" is offensive. It's because the term has been used by the group I call the Safety Nazis (such as Ralph Nader and his ilk) to try to force everybody to do things their way,

Me, I'm tired of some bureaucrat telling me that if I go over a number on a sign, that I'm being unsafe. That's bullshit.

because of these stupid speed limit signs, we have people who are scared to ever exceed them.

IMO, the whole Speed Limit thing is largely responsible for the attitude on the roads today. If we simply were allowed to travel at a Reasonable and Prudent speed,
Please forgive me for picking on you, but the lines I selected from your post reflect common attitudes. I don't necessarily disagree with what you said, but I do question how practical these sentiments are.

It is human nature to not want to be told what to do, to think were a little better than others, and have superior judgment.

You discredit speed laws as arbitrary, which they are, suggesting folks should be left to their own judgment, and have cops enforce by their personal judgment rather than those arbitrary laws.
Are you sure being subject to an individuals judgment rather than set rules is a good idea? Laws may be arbitrary, but they are a known standard not subject to one persons prejudices.

While it is possible to nit pick our system and engage in endless rhetorical arguments based on individual philosophies, is it really that bad? IMO, our system works rather well in the big picture.

Crazy you say? Think about it.

Our traffic laws may be excessively conservative, but enforcement is rather sparse and predictable, we are actually fairly free to do what we want. Speed in its self is not dangerous, its the lack of skill, awareness, or judgment in its use that is.

If we ride regularly beyond our abilities or conditions, physics will make it painfully obvious and soon correct us.
If we have more than a very rare encounter with law enforcement, clearly we don't have adequate awareness and/or judgment for our choices and johnny law will correct us.

Speed laws may be arbitrary,
But they do give a fairly useful indication of possible conditions. Having to watch for johnny law keeps us alert, looking for him we may see that deer, kid, old lady, spilled fuel or countless other hazards. If were not paying enough attention to avoid johnny law, what else are we missing?

Arbitrary? mostly. Without merit? rarely. Worth fretting over? never.




It begs an answer to 2 questions,

If we were allowed to choose by our own judgment rather than arbitrary laws, would you.......

1; Ride significantly differently than you do now?

2; Need/use any less skill, awareness, or judgment?
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Old 02-26-2013, 01:32 AM   #21
Thanantos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
IMO speeding is the safest way to ride. Not excessive speed mind you but it is a very rare thing for me to be riding at or below the speed limit.

I ride Assertively. What does that mean? I go slightly faster than the flow of traffic over 95% of the time. (even when that flow is well over the limit)

I NEVER need to be the fastest vehicle on the road. In fact I prefer if a few others speed on ahead to be my pilot car.

Why do I think faster than traffic is the safe way?

First: It puts the rider in control vs. being at the mercy of what is coming from behind.
Second: All those vehicles that you have just passed (in a reasonable and prudent manner) now know you are there which reduces the risk of being rear-ended in the event of a traffic slowdown in places where lane sharing is NOT allowed.

I do not condone Excessive Speed. Like others have said: "Take It To The Track"

Always ride reasonable and prudent to road conditions, visibility and traffic.

Be Polite BUT BE ASSERTIVE!!! (and live to ride another day)
I've heard DAKEZ give this advice more than a few times in this forum and I'd like to give a counter opinion.

But first, I will say that I ride much like DAKEZ does, but not because I think it is safer. It is simply because it is more fun and expedient than being a slow poke.

However, motorcycle safety is about working the statistics. There WILL BE crashes that none of us can avoid. It happens. So what do we do? We ride and equip ourselves in a way that has the highest statistical likelihood of preventing crashes and preventing serious injury if one should happen.

The Hurt report should be our bible here. It is the most significant and comprehensive piece of motorcycle safety research ever completed, and it says (paraphrasing here) that motorcyclists are most likely to get killed and seriously injured when they hit something with the front of their motorcycles. BTW, this is backed up by my personal, anecdotal evidence of having been at the scene of hundreds of motorcycle accidents.

So, how do you prevent hitting something with the front of your motorcycles/bodies? It's simple, you slow down. At a slower speed it is easier to see problems develop in front of us, react to them and slow our motorcycles as much as possible before impact if that is the only option...and sometimes that WILL BE your only option. Shit happens.

Do motorcycles get hit from behind? Well, hell yeah they do, BUT a motorcyclist has a much greater statistical probability of surviving/being less injured in that crash than from a frontal impact.

In fact, the whole idea of getting hit from behind is statistically laughable. You know how many people get hit from behind on mopeds? In my experience VERY, VERY few (a rate so much lower than motorcycle crashes as to be statistically 0), and that's with cars buzzing past them on their entire journey no matter where they are going.

I will also add that, IMHO, being comfortable and confident in the way you ride plays a part in crash avoidance. So, if DAKEZ is most comfortable riding this way then maybe that is the best way for him.

I just bristle at that advice being given as the holy grail of riding to all the riding public.

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Old 02-26-2013, 02:38 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
I ride at the speed I think is safe. That may be more than double or less than half the posted speed limit.
+1.

Where I used to ride, there is a downhill, decreasing radius bend, with an adverse camber and the road is frequently covered in leaves, gravel and mud from the slope above it. The posted legal limit there is 60mph, with an advisory of 40mph. In anything other than perfect conditions, a competently driven rally car would not be able to get through there at 40 without going blind into the oncoming lane (which is the 'run off' for this turn). On a motorbike, most of the time, you're doing really well if you get through there at 25mph.

The very same judgement that allows me to slow down dramatically below the posted limit in order to negotiate this bend safely is what allowed me to do 110mph on a single lane road in total safety; being able to stop in the distance I could see to be clear and pull up with 10 yards to spare when a car was completely stopped, out of sight, around the bend.

Caveat: I do not have unrealistic expectations of other drivers' responsibilities and capabilities. I am not one of these tools who nails it at 150mph past junctions, then cries when they're in a wheelchair after a cager pulls out because they saw them as a speck on the horizon and (quite reasonably) thought they had time to pull out.
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:11 AM   #23
telejojo
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I will ride my FZ8 with the sportbike group sometimes and they can get pretty fast and take chances but overall they are sane.I don 't like topping hills or rounding corners at high speed if I can't see what's on the other side but some do.I think you can go as fast as you want in the right places where you can see way ahead and no intersections and just use your head.If someone wants to ride faster than me and take chances I just let them go on and ride my ride that I feel is safe.If you can ride at 75% and have 25% left in case something happens I think you can ride fast and still be safe.
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:47 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanantos View Post
However, motorcycle safety is about working the statistics. There WILL BE crashes that none of us can avoid. It happens. So what do we do? We ride and equip ourselves in a way that has the highest statistical likelihood of preventing crashes and preventing serious injury if one should happen.
Not true.

a) The highest statistical likelihood of preventing motorcycle crashes and injury is not riding.

b) Not everyone is an ATGATT safety Nazi.
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Old 02-26-2013, 04:32 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer111v View Post
After road racing for a few years, I had to stop street riding for a while. My comfort zone had been raised way too high. I felt way too at ease at 80 mph. I have never been a street racer.
I generally ride around the speed limit, but the situation has more influence on me than a sign. Law enforcement is one of the factors that influences me.
After years in the saddle, fate still ways on my mind. Once I was riding by myself on Rt 202 in Maine south bound out of Gray. At about 70 mph I see something flash across in front of me (like 10' in front of me). It was a car that had blown through a stop sign at a cross road to 202. A fraction of a mph faster and I would have truly been dead. A lot faster or slower and I would never have known about the car blowing across the road.
I ride or drive that road every day... I bet it was the intersection of Falmouth Road. Seen MANY accidents and close calls there. I always cover my brake when I approach that intersection.
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:55 AM   #26
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By definition traveling 1 mph above the posted limit is speeding in the eyes of the law.

I think what is more important is the speed for a given condition. I have heard it many times from folks in the racer contingent that they no longer ride on the street because their threshold is to high, as was alluded to above. I have done track days and have really enjoyed being able to push the limit with out the hazards found on the street. But I still would much rather fill up the CamelBack, gas up the KTM, and just go. This is what it's all about to me.....just riding......don't care where, don't care with who, don't care why.

I am a consistant 5 to 10 mph over rider on open roads. I rarely will sit behind someone on a two lane that is traveling near the speed limit. I will run faster or slower completely dependant upon the conditions.

I for one, find no shock and awe when I hear about a motorcycle fatality that involved excessive speed or lack of personal protective equipment. It saddens me when I hear about these situations, but not to the point of being overly cautious to the point of not enjoying myself while riding. Would be easy to point fingers at the helmetless squidlies riding turbo, extened swingarm, ZRX-A-Busa's, or the wanna be racer on Mulholland/The Gap but they are not the only ones that are killing themselves due to much speed, lack of skill, or lack of gear.

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Old 02-26-2013, 06:38 AM   #27
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Here in Australia, the speed limit on most country roads is 100kmh with a few highways that are 110kmh and one that is 130kmh. The maximum you can exceed this before you get fined is 3kmh over. Unfortunately on some riads in Victoria, the police have convinced the Government to lower the limit on perfectly safe roads to 80kmh and the police are sitting in the bush above this road with a radar gun, radios and they are wearing camo gear and have covered their position with camo netting. The road also has double lines for most of its length now (which it didn't have before). Someone goes past doing 83kmh, they radio down the road and a police car that has been hiding in the bushes comes and flags you down and you get booked or lose your license on the spot. This sort of enforcement of stupid speed limits does nothing to lower the road toll and only serves to give police a bad name. The lowering of speed limits unnecessarily, is causing a lot of riders and drivers to get fines, yet they are not doing anything that is unsafe. Up until 6 months ago it was safe to do 100 and yet now it is unsafe to exceed 80kmh and they won't say why.
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Old 02-26-2013, 07:08 AM   #28
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I think there are really two definitions of speeding here, and people don't always exercise clarity in describing them.

1. Speeding = 5-15 mph over a limit.

2. Speeding = 20+ mph over a limit.

Obviously, I'm plucking arbitrary numbers out of thin air here.

But I don't know ANYONE who doesn't "speed" under definition #1. I don't do it everywhere, I don't do it all the time, but c'mon, who doesn't twist the throttle or press the pedal on an open road, or to get around grandma, or to simply just keep on moving along on a road that allows it?

Definition #1 isn't excessive speed. Definition #1 recognizes that the legal limits are arbitrary, don't reflect road conditions, and usually don't reflect rider & driver skill. There's nothing magical about 55 mph that keeps any one individual rider or driver safe.

That said... #2 is the killer. Because speeding under that definition requires significantly more factors for success: rider skill, rider equipment, traffic conditions, road conditions, etc.

When any one of those conditions is less than ideal, then speeding like that is a one-way ticket to a statistic. Unless you are literally in the middle of absolute nowhere (Hello, Nevada!), choosing to speed that fast on a public road is simply a dumb decision.

If I'm going 80 mph in a 70 mph zone, I don't need to "take it to the track." If I'm going 150 mph in a 70 mph zone, I'm an idiot for not taking it to the track-- even if I'm the best rider in the world. Which I'm not. And which most people aren't.

(Also, if I'm going 80 mph in a 70 mph on a foggy day with a bunch of tractor trailers boxing me in... I'm ALSO an idiot. You pick your spots for spirited riding. Alas, common sense is oh-so-uncommon).
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Old 02-26-2013, 07:12 AM   #29
SocalRob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
IMO speeding is the safest way to ride. Not excessive speed mind you but it is a very rare thing for me to be riding at or below the speed limit.

I ride Assertively. What does that mean? I go slightly faster than the flow of traffic over 95% of the time. (even when that flow is well over the limit)

I NEVER need to be the fastest vehicle on the road. In fact I prefer if a few others speed on ahead to be my pilot car.

Why do I think faster than traffic is the safe way?

First: It puts the rider in control vs. being at the mercy of what is coming from behind.
Second: All those vehicles that you have just passed (in a reasonable and prudent manner) now know you are there which reduces the risk of being rear-ended in the event of a traffic slowdown in places where lane sharing is NOT allowed.

I do not condone Excessive Speed. Like others have said: "Take It To The Track"

Always ride reasonable and prudent to road conditions, visibility and traffic.

Be Polite BUT BE ASSERTIVE!!! (and live to ride another day)
While riding assertively may be more enjoyable, and may be safer on an interstate, I am unconvinced that it is safest on surface streets.

If nothing else, remember impact forces double with every ten mph increase in speed. Hit something at thirty mph is double the impact as twenty mph.

On surface streets I stick pretty close to the posted limit, and when I am going through intersections, or areas where it is possible to encounter folks pulling in front of me or turning left in front of me, I try hard to be under the speed limit. I find that by doing so I basically never have cars pull out in my RW. I often read about riders who say they are constantly having cars pull out or turn in front of them, or riders who say they have a close call on nearly every ride.

I can't recall the last time a car took my RW or when I had a close call I did not see well before it happened. And I commute every day all year in Los Angeles.

I truly believe the vast majority of left turner and car pulling out in front of bike accidents are contributed to by the bike traveling faster than the driver thought.

Besides, if you drop your speed to 25mph in a dicey intersection, cover your brakes, you stand a good chance at getting your speed below a survivable 10mph impact.
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:03 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by SocalRob View Post
While riding assertively may be more enjoyable, and may be safer on an interstate, I am unconvinced that it is safest on surface streets.

If nothing else, remember impact forces double with every ten mph increase in speed. Hit something at thirty mph is double the impact as twenty mph.

On surface streets I stick pretty close to the posted limit, and when I am going through intersections, or areas where it is possible to encounter folks pulling in front of me or turning left in front of me, I try hard to be under the speed limit. I find that by doing so I basically never have cars pull out in my RW. I often read about riders who say they are constantly having cars pull out or turn in front of them, or riders who say they have a close call on nearly every ride.

I can't recall the last time a car took my RW or when I had a close call I did not see well before it happened. And I commute every day all year in Los Angeles.

I truly believe the vast majority of left turner and car pulling out in front of bike accidents are contributed to by the bike traveling faster than the driver thought.

Besides, if you drop your speed to 25mph in a dicey intersection, cover your brakes, you stand a good chance at getting your speed below a survivable 10mph impact.
Very well stated.
I'm a big believer in the statement that "speed doesn't kill -- speed differentials kill".
Anyone that thinks they are better off traveling at 80 when traffic is moving at 60 is only kidding themselves.
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