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Old 02-26-2013, 08:05 AM   #31
Sadlsor
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I love what Keith Code says (paraphrased): "With the quickness, agility and power of today's motorcycles, there is no reason to ever hit anything you don't intend to."

If you do, it stands to reason that you have experienced "loss of control of the vehicle", and you may have even been "traveling too fast for conditions."

Speeding, as related to the Department of Public Safety (or what I affectionately refer to as Department of Revenue) is much less a matter of safety, and more an issue of revenue enhancement.

DPS is a bureaucracy, as are many such governmental institutions, and has long since lost any semblance of connecting its function to its actual name. It is a bloated, largely useless waste of once-seemingly endless federal funds.

While not a fan of more controls, I do believe, as alluded to above, that a more sensible approach to motor vehicle licensing would do more to increase safety. I'm not advocating a Euro-style graduated system, but will admit that to me, it has great merit. Without facts at hand, in general the Europeans have fewer crashes (I dislike the word "accident", because there is a reason crap happens.) Why? Maybe because they have more "skin in the game"... it's expensive to drive there. Here, you buy your vehicle whose payments you can afford, and get a license for about $20.

OMG! What about my RIGHTS?!?!?! Here's a clue: we have no "right" to drive, or to ride a motorcycle. We have a Constitution that guarantees our freedom to traverse across state / municipal boundaries. (As early as the Articles of Confederation the Congress recognized freedom of movement (Article 4), though the right was thought to be so fundamental during the drafting of the Constitution as not needing explicit enumeration)

Another ramble, I suppose, but in the end I routinely ignore posted limits to some degree. When it's clear, I may even pass on a double-yellow. Occasionally (although with much less frequency these days) I will pay the "stupid tax" when caught.

The key, in my mind, to avoiding unplanned collisions is to remember and use the line of sight rule, regardless of conditions: You must be able to completely stop within the distance you can see.

The tricky part comes when something moves into your path of travel, requiring an immediate adjustment to stopping within your line of sight!
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:10 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SocalRob View Post
If nothing else, remember impact forces double with every ten mph increase in speed. Hit something at thirty mph is double the impact as twenty mph.
I'm not a physicist, but are you sure about that?
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:17 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by mb90535im View Post
I'm not a physicist, but are you sure about that?
Not exactly correct -- but close.
Kinetic energy increases with the square of the speed..... an object doubling its speed has four times as much kinetic energy.
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:18 AM   #34
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You really can't trust the police reports which say "speed was a factor". Were the police actually there with a radar gun testing the rider's speed? No, they weren't, the fact is they arrive at the scene, see a crashed motorcycle, and automatically assume speed was a factor so write it in their report.

The bottom line is motorcycling is an incredibly dangerous thing to do, especially in cities and on public roads. I think it is so dangerous some of us rationalize with ourselves that if we just avoid certain things we can make it acceptably safe. Like telling ourselves since police reports commonly list speed as a factor, we won't get in a crash if we never speed. Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that, and every time you take a ride you run the risk of going down. Those are the facts.

I agree with the overall message of using an appropriate speed for the road, but pointing to police reports and saying a reduced speed would solve most accidents I think is very, very flawed.
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:23 AM   #35
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To clear things up a little. (stay engaged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanantos View Post
However, motorcycle safety is about working the statistics. There WILL BE crashes that none of us can avoid. It happens. So what do we do? We ride and equip ourselves in a way that has the highest statistical likelihood of preventing crashes and preventing serious injury if one should happen.

So, how do you prevent hitting something with the front of your motorcycles/bodies? It's simple, you slow down.


I will also add that, IMHO, being comfortable and confident in the way you ride plays a part in crash avoidance. So, if DAKEZ is most comfortable riding this way then maybe that is the best way for him.

The best way to avoid an accident and stay safe while riding is by paying attention. When a rider is riding assertively he/she it focused on the task of riding more than if they were just out putting around.

"So, how do you prevent hitting something with the front of your motorcycles/bodies?"

It's simple YOU PAY ATTENTION. How do you pay attention? You ride assertively.

As I stated I do not condone excessive speed on public roads. But working in the industry I can tell you that all but a very few crashes I have ever heard of or encountered are due to the rider being complacent. That is not to say that the other vehicle did not contribute or is not at fault... But had the rider been focused on the task of riding it was easily avoidable.

Are you in control when you ride or are you placing yourself in the hands of others you know nothing about?

I trust ME to take care of ME.
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:42 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SocalRob View Post
While riding assertively may be more enjoyable, and may be safer on an interstate, I am unconvinced that it is safest on surface streets.

If nothing else, remember impact forces double with every ten mph increase in speed. Hit something at thirty mph is double the impact as twenty mph.

On surface streets I stick pretty close to the posted limit, and when I am going through intersections, or areas where it is possible to encounter folks pulling in foront of me or turning left in front of me, I try hard to be under the speed limit. I find that by doing so I basically never have cars pull out in my RW. I often read about riders who say they are constantly having cars pull out or turn in front of them, or riders who say they have a close call on nearly every ride.

I can't recall the last time a car took my RW or when I had a close call I did not see well before it happened. And I commute every day all year in Los Angeles.

I truly believe the vast majority of left turner and car pulling out in front of bike accidents are contributed to by the bike traveling faster than the driver thought.

Besides, if you drop your speed to 25mph in a dicey intersection, cover your brakes, you stand a good chance at getting your speed below a survivable 10mph impact.
+1
You have uncommon common sense, and situational awareness.

The concern isn't what speed we think we can handle, its that others make their decisions based on certain reasonable expectations.
Nobody is expecting to encounter a MC doing 60 in a 35, or 90 in a 60, and anybody who thinks they can safely do double the limit where there is the possibility of encountering another motorist is a fool.
The argument that they should be looking for such things is not a reasonable expectation in the real world.

While I don't necessarily agree with Dakez on this point, I can be just as safe or safer at 5 under than I can be at 5 over, but really a few mph faster than traffic is unlikely to have any effect on the outcome of an incident.

I do agree with him that being "stationary" in traffic flow is bad, but "speeding" isn't the only solution to that issue.
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:43 AM   #37
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Try riding in California at the speed limit, you will get your ass run over big time
Most freeways 10 over is the norm
Watch for school zones, construction zones and stop signs big fines and points
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:51 AM   #38
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On the interstate I tend to ride above the speed limit but no drastically above surrounding traffic. On the surface roads I tend to stay with in or slightly above the speed limit. Other road users can better judge my approach, it allows me more reaction times and it avoids being pulled over...I don't drive my cage really any different. I do drive slower on the interstate in my car than the bike but thats mostly because of fuel savings.
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:29 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.G View Post
Cities figured out if they shorten up the yellow light timing, they can create more tickets.

Rob
THANK YOU. Not only that, but intersections that have been "improved" in my town are now so freakin' huge, even if they left the yellow duration the same, the distance is longer, ensuring more caught in their ticket writing scam.
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:42 AM   #40
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Great discussion. I really like you guys.
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:51 AM   #41
nevermind
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
IMO speeding is the safest way to ride. Not excessive speed mind you but it is a very rare thing for me to be riding at or below the speed limit.

I ride Assertively. What does that mean? I go slightly faster than the flow of traffic over 95% of the time. (even when that flow is well over the limit)

I NEVER need to be the fastest vehicle on the road. In fact I prefer if a few others speed on ahead to be my pilot car.

Why do I think faster than traffic is the safe way?

First: It puts the rider in control vs. being at the mercy of what is coming from behind.
Second: All those vehicles that you have just passed (in a reasonable and prudent manner) now know you are there which reduces the risk of being rear-ended in the event of a traffic slowdown in places where lane sharing is NOT allowed.

I do not condone Excessive Speed. Like others have said: "Take It To The Track"

Always ride reasonable and prudent to road conditions, visibility and traffic.

Be Polite BUT BE ASSERTIVE!!! (and live to ride another day)

This x 1,000,050!

Keep the majority of what can kill you in FRONT of you where you can see, plan and execute.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:44 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanantos View Post
In fact, the whole idea of getting hit from behind is statistically laughable. In my experience VERY, VERY few (a rate so much lower than motorcycle crashes as to be statistically 0).


Twice now. Doesn't seem so statistically laughable when you're flying into oncoming traffic.
Furthermore, I know at least two other riders that have nearly been killed by being rear ended, so please don't lull people reading this thread into believing it doesn't happen very often
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:47 AM   #43
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I'm tired of some bureaucrat telling me that if I go over a number on a sign, that I'm being unsafe. That's bullshit. Every road has a speed limit -- but that actual limit varies from person to person, to vehicle to vehicle, and from time of day and weather conditions.
agree. That's because our system is based on rules when it should be based on skill. The rules are EVERYTHING
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:49 AM   #44
Thanantos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duck View Post
Not true.

a) The highest statistical likelihood of preventing motorcycle crashes and injury is not riding.

b) Not everyone is an ATGATT safety Nazi.
Well, we were having a discussion of speed and someone posted regarding safety. I merely tried to inject some actual facts into that discussion.

I couldn't care less how YOU ride. No, that's not true. If I had my way you would continue riding NOTGATT and like a bat out of hell.

Statistically speaking, you are almost surely only going to hurt yourself and provide me and my colleagues some job security in the process
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:54 AM   #45
Thanantos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
The best way to avoid an accident and stay safe while riding is by paying attention. When a rider is riding assertively he/she it focused on the task of riding more than if they were just out putting around.

"So, how do you prevent hitting something with the front of your motorcycles/bodies?"

It's simple YOU PAY ATTENTION. How do you pay attention? You ride assertively.

As I stated I do not condone excessive speed on public roads. But working in the industry I can tell you that all but a very few crashes I have ever heard of or encountered are due to the rider being complacent. That is not to say that the other vehicle did not contribute or is not at fault... But had the rider been focused on the task of riding it was easily avoidable.

Are you in control when you ride or are you placing yourself in the hands of others you know nothing about?

I trust ME to take care of ME.
Do you have any evidence that this is the case other than the fact that YOU haven't crashed yet? That argument is kind of like the "deer whistle" argument. Lots of people were convinced they worked because they never hit a deer.....until they did.

Also, I don't see how "riding assertively" is the only way to or somehow automatically equates to "pay attention".

Again, I can't argue too fervently against this because I am guilty of it myself and this statement "I trust ME to take care of ME. " is truest of all.

EDIT: I also completely agree that paying attention to your surroundings at all times is key.

Thanantos screwed with this post 02-26-2013 at 10:59 AM
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