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Old 02-27-2013, 06:58 PM   #31
Attico
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Maybe i should post some pictures of the professional tike setter that did my shower. It doesnt slope to the drain in some spots so it has standing water. Most of the tiles arent level to their adjascent tiles. I'm going to have to rip it out. I know there are some guys that arent any good, but i think if he used the kerdi system, it would at least drain properly.

Its not what you use, its the attention you put into the job.


Quote:
Originally Posted by One Less Harley View Post
OK Rufus and I are the only "tile setters" here posting and he is absolutely right.

Cracks in the motor bed don't cause leaks!!!!! Your statement of a cracked motor bead being the cause of the leak is not what causes the leak. A pvc pan will not crack or tear (unless movement is very excessive like inches) ,nothing personal here just the plain truth. I suspect if the pan leaks then it's tar paper or lead.

There's more to tile work than just slapping the stuff on the walls. Something to consider- For the cost of the Kerdi system and materials one might find that getting a tile setter to do the job might not be that much more money, and worth the difference. If you consider if you screw up and have a disaster, worst case or just have a rough job with staggered joints, thinset oozing through the joints, toe holds on the walls and no trim pieces to finish edges....the list goes on.

Of course there are some people who are capable of doing a pretty decent job and hopefully the OP has the skills. In my case kerdi just takes money out of my hands to sell a product. Is it any better? I don't thinks so. It takes me 3-4 days to do a shower ( not 8 hr days though), many do it your selfers will take 1-2 weeks for a basic shower. Another consideration is what's your time worth.
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:33 PM   #32
rufus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attico View Post
Maybe i should post some pictures of the professional tike setter that did my shower. It doesnt slope to the drain in some spots so it has standing water. Most of the tiles arent level to their adjascent tiles. I'm going to have to rip it out. I know there are some guys that arent any good, but i think if he used the kerdi system, it would at least drain properly.

Its not what you use, its the attention you put into the job.



This is a constant problem. Untrained people contracting jobs. Older craftsmen are retiring and dying and there aren't any TRAINED young guys. Just Lots of goobers who barely know enough to get by. The company i work for has been in business since 1957. They are running out of good people. They hire contractors when we are busy, but we have had to replace quite a few jobs in the last few years. Guys come in with good recommendations and then they screw up a simple job. I don't know what is going to happen with the construction business 10 or 15 years from now when we end up with almost nobody who really knows what they are doing.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:29 AM   #33
One Less Harley
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the showers are what separate the men from the boys......

"Its not what you use, its the attention you put into the job."

what this makes no sense???? It's the skills one has, attention to detail,prep work and materials used

Beware the "goobers' not knowing their limits when all they want to do is make money and to hell with the customer when the check has cleared!!! There's plenty of them out there that have "laid some tile", you don't know how many times I've heard that!!!! Some people think that I can do a job so quick that it can't be worth that much for that amount of time, but they get a jack leg whose cheaper, takes 2-3 times longer, 15 smoke breaks a day, 2 hour lunches.... and makes a complete mess.

One guy told me this and it's so true- " I'd rather go broke fishing that go broke doing your job....."
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One Less Harley screwed with this post 02-28-2013 at 09:56 AM
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Old 02-28-2013, 11:33 AM   #34
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I've been a general contractor for 40 years.
20 years heavy commercial/industrial.
20 years custom ground up residential, commercial and remodeling.
I have had all the problems associated with subcontracting all trades of work.

A company is only as good as it's people and unfortunately there are a great varity of people with an even greater varity of abilities in the workforce.
This applies not just to the building trades.

Education and training is a good foundation but most construction workers learn by doing.
Hopefully they work for someone who has already learned (made the mistakes) and can mentor the next generation in the right direction.

Technology and building materials evolve and we have to sort out what works and at what cost.

Cost and profit is ultimately what drives construction methods and materials used.
It always seems to come down to dollars $$$$$$$ even after the customer says I want it done the best way possible.

So back to your shower.

1. Hotmop and lead are out. Every one I've torn out was leaking, 100%.

2. EPDM (rubber/vinyl) liners could work if everything done perfectly but I've yet to see one done right and do not use them.
Those I've torn out had one and usualy all of 3 problems.
a. liner not run up sidewalls high enough.
b. holes in liner
c. drain not properly installed

3. Composite or Cast Iron pans work well where tile not required for appearance. Can use composite, stone or tile for walls.

4. Schluter Shower Systems are the ultimate IMO.
http://www.schluter.com/

Why Schluter over "traditional motar over paper" technology ?

It is well proven that a successful tile job must "float" over the substructure it is applied to be that wood or concrete.
Tile applied directly to plywood, backerboardor concrete slabs will eventually "telegraph" any joints or cracks resulting in cracks in the tile.

Installing a motar bed shower pan and walls was the standard quality method to float the tile and correct unplumb/crooked framing.

The Schluter System is better IMO because the moisture barrier is on top of the motar, backerboard, or mioisture resistant drywall instead of underneath eliminating saturated materials under the tile.

I sometimes still use motar to build the sloped pan but use the foam Schluter System mostly with perfect results with Schluter Kerdi over and using the Schluter drain.

For the walls I ensure the framing is plumb and square and prefer to use Hardi backerboard but would have no worries appling a floated motar bed to the walls then using Schluter Kerdi over.

These days to ensure quality I do all my own framing and tile work and enjoy the referals.

Good Luck with your project.
Hope you choose the Schluter Shower System, it is the best current technology IMO.
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:47 PM   #35
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[QUOTE
2. EPDM (rubber/vinyl) liners could work if everything done perfectly but I've yet to see one done right and do not use them.
Those I've torn out had one and usualy all of 3 problems.
a. liner not run up sidewalls high enough.
b. holes in liner
c. drain not properly installed
----------------------------------------------

Tile applied directly to plywood, backerboardor concrete slabs will eventually "telegraph" any joints or cracks resulting in cracks in the tile.

[/QUOTE]



I prefer to install the pan myself. Most plumbers will let you. If a pan is already installed, 90% of the time I pull it out to fix something. Been doing this for 30 years. Zero problems. A vinyl pan installation is very simple, but easy to screw up. Unfortunately most are done wrong. When done right they will last the rest of your life.


If cracks are telegraphing through cement backer board then it wasn't installed properly. I've been using durock/permabase for over 30 years and have had ZERO problems.

Tile should NEVER EVER be stuck to plywood. Or ANY wood.

EVERTHING expands and contracts. Kerdi Schluter has seams that will eventually come apart. When water gets behind it, it is trapped. THAT is the biggest problem with Kerdi. I think that years form now you will see late night commercials from some law firm asking "was a Kerdi Schluter shower installed in your home".....then call this # ...........
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:52 PM   #36
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So my comment means that regardless of the two choices, schluter or traditional morter bed, if your a shitty craftsman, you'll fuck it up regardless. My guy wasnt cheap. Price isnt always an indication. I have a friend who hired an old italian fellow who charges a third of what my guy costs, but he took a full week but the job is flawless.

I think i'm going to dyi it this time and just take it slow and not rush it. I'm going to use the kit.

I agree with your comments regarding trades not being passed down. Its a shame...

Quote:
Originally Posted by One Less Harley View Post
the showers are what separate the men from the boys......

"Its not what you use, its the attention you put into the job."

what this makes no sense???? It's the skills one has, attention to detail,prep work and materials used

Beware the "goobers' not knowing their limits when all they want to do is make money and to hell with the customer when the check has cleared!!! There's plenty of them out there that have "laid some tile", you don't know how many times I've heard that!!!! Some people think that I can do a job so quick that it can't be worth that much for that amount of time, but they get a jack leg whose cheaper, takes 2-3 times longer, 15 smoke breaks a day, 2 hour lunches.... and makes a complete mess.

One guy told me this and it's so true- " I'd rather go broke fishing that go broke doing your job....."
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:07 AM   #37
One Less Harley
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Plumbers can't put pans in right, never seen one that could. If the pan leaks it's the tile man which get screwed!!! I still use dourcock on floors too (not shower floors) and won't use Hardi backer, or kerdi and I'm not going to either not if it's got my name on it. Of course that's one man's opinion, based on my experience.

Attico- man that sucks you got a bad job, sounds like you thought you had a good sub. Unfortunately the typical homeowner has to use his own discretion on who he hires. There's plenty of subs who will talk the talk all day long, but just aren't worth a crap and are just about making a buck! Me I'm just a NO BS kind of guy no fluff to my talk. I'll tell you what I would do and why to get the best longest lasting easiest to maintain job, direct, to the point, no fluff no BS, no song and dance of course it may not come across well for some people that need that BS to be convinced.
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Old 03-01-2013, 07:25 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Less Harley View Post
Plumbers can't put pans in right, never seen one that could. If the pan leaks it's the tile man which get screwed!!! I still use dourcock on floors too (not shower floors) and won't use Hardi backer, or kerdi and I'm not going to either not if it's got my name on it. Of course that's one man's opinion, based on my experience.

I have the same opinions, these opinions come from experience. Hardibacker WILL delaminate, seen it many many times. Most plumbers that I talk to don't want to put the pan in, Probably had too many complaints over the years.
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Old 03-01-2013, 07:27 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attico View Post
So my comment means that regardless of the two choices, schluter or traditional morter bed, if your a shitty craftsman, you'll fuck it up regardless.

Yes................anything can be fucked up.
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Old 03-01-2013, 07:55 PM   #40
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This is all good info, since I will have to hire a good tile man shortly to do a custom shower.
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Old 03-03-2013, 06:23 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troidus View Post
When I rebuilt my tub enclosure I converted from stem valves to a single lever. I replumbed with copper. I considered PEX with Sharkbite connectors, but the packaging for the Sharkbite connectors said not for sale in CA or VT. I figure that means there's something wrong with it, so I went with proven technology.
They're not for sale in CA or VT because the brass used isn't 100% lead free. More and more states are moving to this (maybe even nationwide?) I know NH is going lead free next year, and the fittings that are common in my line of work cost 50% more for true "lead free".
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Old 03-03-2013, 11:13 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holckster View Post
I've been a general contractor for 40 years.
20 years heavy commercial/industrial.
20 years custom ground up residential, commercial and remodeling.
I have had all the problems associated with subcontracting all trades of work.

A company is only as good as it's people and unfortunately there are a great varity of people with an even greater varity of abilities in the workforce.
This applies not just to the building trades.

This to me is the most applicable statement, about 99% of the problems that occur with any of the methods used. Just because you might invest in the highest technology available unless someone with the proper training/skill/pride installs it you might as well not start.

Why Schluter over "traditional motar over paper" technology ?

It is well proven that a successful tile job must "float" over the substructure it is applied to be that wood or concrete.
Tile applied directly to plywood, backerboardor concrete slabs will eventually "telegraph" any joints or cracks resulting in cracks in the tile.

This is not a universal truth. The truth is that unlike concrete most framed raised wood foundation houses move very little relative to the size of the structure. To make that point how often do you see a crack in the middle of a sheet of drywall or the inside or outside corner of a properly taped drywall job. Unless outside forces such as earthquakes/hurricanes are at work it is almost always the case of dissimilar materials improperly joined or water/moisture presence. So if I attach my paper, wire and mortar to a properly framed and sheet rocked shower enclosure and install a vinyl pan correctly none of these things are truly floating except the dry pack mortar that creates the slope for the shower floor. Crack isolation is a very real concern in a lot of applications but a shower done properly is not one of them.



Installing a motar bed shower pan and walls was the standard quality method to float the tile and correct unplumb/crooked framing.
And this is the very basic fact that Kerdi does not address in any legitimate way. This point is moot if one is not really concerned with a level/plumb/square shower but the reality is that when we start putting levels and squares to most framed structures they vary in precision just as much as the subs that do the work.


The Schluter System is better IMO because the moisture barrier is on top of the motar, backerboard, or mioisture resistant drywall instead of underneath eliminating saturated materials under the tile.
Truth be told as long as the waterproofing takes place properly it doesnt matter if its first or last (think stucco) if a mortar bed is done properly the transmission of water vapor through tile and grout means the substrate is rarely saturated. My experience with this is the possibilty to trap moisture behind a truly water and vapor proof membrane is always a very real concern.

I sometimes still use motar to build the sloped pan but use the foam Schluter System mostly with perfect results with Schluter Kerdi over and using the Schluter drain.

For the walls I ensure the framing is plumb and square and prefer to use Hardi backerboard but would have no worries appling a floated motar bed to the walls then using Schluter Kerdi over.
In a perfect world that would be great but by the time its our turn on a job site there is very little recourse to resolve some of these issues.

These days to ensure quality I do all my own framing and tile work and enjoy the referals.
The ultimate solution

Good Luck with your project.
Hope you choose the Schluter Shower System, it is the best current technology IMO.
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:18 PM   #43
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I have a mortar bed shower in the master bath. It is on top of wood flooring over a garage. 16 years old and it has some cracks. The drain is in the center and I think putting it on an end with a flat sloping floor would be best.

I have been thinking of prefab pans when I remodel.

http://www.overstockdeals.com/bathro...ures?limit=200

Moving the drain shouldn't be a monumental deal. Put some cuts in the slab and tap it with a hand sledge until it cracks. Then you are dealing with a drain in dirt. Adjust the drain and quickcrete the floor.

I'm not an expert but I have seen Holmes on Homes a lot.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:57 PM   #44
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On the Schluter site video, they build a shower pan with that Kerdi pan and liner material. They do not do anything to waterproof the junction of the floor liner and wall liner, it's just membrane on membrane with some thin set. How does this stay waterproof along the wall to floor junctions?
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Old 03-08-2013, 03:09 PM   #45
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right on

Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus View Post
BULLSHIT. You don't know what you are talking about.

I have been a tile setter for nearly 40 years. A properly done mortar bed shower will last the rest of your life. I have seen showers that were 80 years old with no problems.

All of these other "systems" that i have seen are designed so that someone who doesn't know what they are doing can build a shower.

The Kerdi system shower floor costs more, takes longer and is of a lower quality than mud set tile.

Kerdi is for goobers who don't know how to properly build a shower. Unfortunately that describes most of the "tile setters" nowadays.
that really needed to be said!
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