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Old 03-11-2013, 09:00 AM   #211
duanew1
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Here is my analysis from the video. I don't think that anyone has said this exact thing yet.

I believe that a heavily loaded rear tire caused a light load on the front tire that caused problems when climbing the hill especially with the bumps. It looks to me like a couple of small wheelies and over correction caused the crash. The first wheelie occurs at 5:06 or so and causes a slight lean to the right. The OP turns the handlebars to the right a little too much as the tire comes down and hits another bump. This make the front tire come up again and the over correction causes the front tire to go to the right way too far and causes a severe left lean of the bike and rider. This left lean causes the OP to turn left to compensate and points him directly to the edge of the cliff. The only way I see out of this is hit both brakes at this point and jump ship as there is not enough room to correct.

I had a instance that I was going too fast and knew if I did not do something different I was going off the side of the road along with my bike. I hit the brakes, laid the bike down, got off the bike, and tucked my head and rolled. I managed to keep both the bike and myself from going off the edge. My front tire was hanging off a bit when it stopped. I may have had a little more room than the OP had though.
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:11 AM   #212
HellSickle
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BTDT, but without the cliff. You bobbled and starting leaning to the left. The natural instinct is to feed some throttle to avoid falling. More likely to happen when you are tired. I did a nifty 180 last summer when climbing a rocky trough near the divide.

Captain Hindsight, where are you?
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:29 AM   #213
Bob
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Sorry for the hijack Joe, but do you have any video of black dragon?
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:04 AM   #214
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WOW!!! That is one of the worst crashes I have seen. I am amazed that you walked away from that. So glad it was not worse, geeze!!! Cat like reactions/instincts or something. Out in the middle of no where too. 12' drop, crazy. Again, so glad it was not worse.
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:09 PM   #215
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First things first!!! I'm very glad you are OK. But in my opinion the most important part about this whole thread is the Post crash Forensics, and I am very glad you are covering them, and open to discussion. The FAA has an entire department dedicated to investigating and disseminating this information to keep it from happening again, mostly since the results are almost always fatal. I always tell my children (and anyone else that will listen) "You cant crash an infinite amount of times. You better learn something from EVERY one of them!"

Second thing I would like to say is DO NOT unlearn "When in doubt throttle out." In my opinion if you would have been carrying more speed into this obstacle you would have had no issue. I cannot count the times this mantra has save my bacon. You cannot keep your balance at zero miles per hour. There are exceptions to this rule, but those riders are not mere mortals (Julien DuPont, Graham Jarvis, Danny McKaskill come to mind). For the general Moto population, most do not keep it in their mind, that all the benefits of the gyroscopic effect of our rotating mass (your wheels) have no effect below ~10 mph. The fact is, the slower you go the more likely you are to fall over.

Let me cover 3 things I believe could have caused this crash. Then I will add another "might" factory that could have initiated this downward spiral... Literally.

A. IF YOU LOOK THERE, YOU GO THERE. I believe after your rear tire was upset, you looked at the edge and this caused you to panic. If you look there you go there!!! This is a fact, a law of moto physics, every time I get on my bike I feel I am defying all known laws of physics by fitting my front tire between 2 rocks that I am 100% confident my tire should NOT fit between by an interference fit, of more than 3/4 of an inch. This event is not to be out-done by the fact that my rear tire, never experiences any more than an ever-so-slight disturbance, and in many cases NO disturbance at all!!! This only happens when I am going fast. If I go back to that obstacle, and roll through it, both tires (especially the rear) interfere quite substantially. I find it one of the most curious mysteries I experience EVERY time I ride my bike. I tell my children "Look at the gaps, not the obstacle!"

B. ALWAYS COVER YOUR CONTROLS. Adjust your levers so that they are comfortable to keep your fingers on them ALL OF THE TIME. The poster that claimed "sometimes fate takes over" is just plain wrong. If your fingers were on the controls, you could have pulled in the clutch and dumped the bike at the top of the hill, you weren't going that fast. Dumping your bike at the top would have been a much less spectacular result to this obstacle, but a much less spectacular story, both of which I'm sure you would have preferred.

C. Do not re-position your throttle hand when you move to a standing position if you will be going back and fourth (between seated and standing). I believe when you are tired you make the mistake of repositioning your hand for comfort and this was the beginning of your downfall. When the obstacle was gnarlier than expected, and your front tire was bounced harder than expected you grabbed on tighter, and had a seat. Your front tire climbed up out of the rut and to the right, and you overcompensated to the left.

Obviously all of the above are suppositions since you were the only one there to experience it, but following are a few theories I would like to throw out.

Is there any chance the bottom of the left rear bag touched the rock just before you climbed? This might explain why you were knocked to the right and over corrected to the left.

OR

Do you think your rear tire slipped left into that crevice, causing you to lose your balance to the right and over correct to the left?

Finally, I believe if you ride more conservatively, you will crash MORE. You need to take up mountain biking, or some other form of cross training that will give you complimentary strength and skills. Heck, I advocate buying a lighter trail bike, (Honda 250X or Yamaha WR250) and hitting even harder trails for a shorter period at first then longer periods of time to build your strength and skills, they will all transfer. I know we all get older, but in this case, I do not believe slowing down is the answer.

If this were me, I couldn't imagine showing this video to my wife and being able to talk her into letting me do it again without having a real answer as to what went wrong.

I know its hard to believe that I am stating that you should go faster, but in this case that is exactly what I am saying, and I can state many examples of why.

We cant crash an infinite amount of times, so you better learn from every one!


Quote:
Originally Posted by joefromsf View Post

So what lessons have I learned. The primary lesson is that I need to ride more conservatively and not accept crashing as part of the game. I don’t want to put my wife and riding partners thru this or a worse scenario again. This was indeed a wake-up call. I’m not getting any younger, but I love adventure riding and plan to continue. I also want to return and complete the TAT. I’ve got to remember the journey and overall experience is what is important to me, not whether or not I was able run an obstacle without scouting, dabbing, duck paddling or even walking the bike through.

What about skills improvement? I’ve taken several big bike oriented one day training sessions and have Neduro’s DVDs. I’m not a noob. I’ve probably ridden 15k miles of dirt on my wee-strom and another 7k on the DR650. That said I’d like to take the Jimmy Lewis weekend class one of these days. But my goals aren’t really to ride harder terrain or ride faster or even get a smaller bike. I will look at covering my controls more, and unlearn the mantra “when in doubt, gas it out”.

Thanks for reading.

ARZ screwed with this post 03-11-2013 at 04:01 PM
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:47 PM   #216
RxZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joefromsf View Post

Not sure if it was a contributing factor or not, but I think I sound tired in the 5 minutes of video before the crash. There's an occasional heavy sigh. We had only ridden 11 miles that morning and had taken short breaks at Swazey Cabin and under the I-70 bridge so it wasn't that day's riding. But three days prior during our layover days in Moab, I got pretty sick and took a day off and stayed in bed most of the day. I think it was a combination of exhaustion and a cold setting in. I was taking non-drowsy Benydril and ibuprofen during the subsequent riding days.
As a pharmacist, I have to point this out... There is no such thing as non-drowsy Benadryl. Benadryl (diphenhydramine is the generic name) can be very sedating for many people. In fact, it is commonly used as a sleep aid. It can make one feel drowsy, tired, "disconnected", etc. It does work great for allergies, probably better than the 2nd generation anti-histamines (benadryl is 1st generation), but it does have more sedating side-effects.

Anyway, I am glad you were not seriously hurt, and having never done an adventure ride like this I have no opinions to post on that matter. Other than it looks like a blast and I want to do it one day
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Old 03-11-2013, 03:44 PM   #217
HardWorkingDog
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Originally Posted by ARZ View Post
First things first!!! I'm very glad you are OK. But in my opinion the most important part about this whole thread is the Post crash Forensics, and I am very glad you are covering them, and open to discussion....
Yes, yes, and Yes!

Very well put ARZ.

And I'm not showing this video to MY wife. Ever.



(and learning about you taking "non-drowsy" Benadryl raised a red flag to me as well...)
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:09 PM   #218
ARZ
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Originally Posted by HardWorkingDog View Post
Yes, yes, and Yes!

Very well put ARZ.

And I'm not showing this video to MY wife. Ever.



(and learning about you taking "non-drowsy" Benadryl raised a red flag to me as well...)
Thanks!

I happen to be part of the population that is completely unaffected by Benadryl, caffeine or the like. I didn't think for a moment that those might have affected his balance, since they don't seem to affect me.

I will definitely take heed from now on when consuming those drugs and riding.
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:59 PM   #219
duanew1
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Benadryl makes me lose a day. It totally knocks me out.
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:30 PM   #220
joefromsf OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RxZ View Post
As a pharmacist, I have to point this out... There is no such thing as non-drowsy Benadryl. Benadryl (diphenhydramine is the generic name) can be very sedating for many people. In fact, it is commonly used as a sleep aid. It can make one feel drowsy, tired, "disconnected", etc. It does work great for allergies, probably better than the 2nd generation anti-histamines (benadryl is 1st generation), but it does have more sedating side-effects.
OK, I just checked my toiletries bag. I had both Benadryl and "daytime multi-symptom cold relief" pills. So I probably took Benadryl on my sick day in Moab and at night; and then took the other pills during the day. Sorry for the confusion.
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:43 PM   #221
ARZ
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Originally Posted by joefromsf View Post
OK, I just checked my toiletries bag. I had both Benadryl and "daytime multi-symptom cold relief" pills. So I probably took Benadryl on my sick day in Moab and at night; and then took the other pills during the day. Sorry for the confusion.
Interested to hear your opinion on my initial post.
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:43 PM   #222
Trane Francks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duanew1 View Post
It looks to me like a couple of small wheelies and over correction caused the crash.
I think they definitely contributed. Given the slow speed, I suspect the rear tire slipped into the "V" of the top step and also threw the bike to the left, which contributed strongly to the big, leftward correction that set up the fall. Slow speed, lugging engine, unsettled/wheelied front, slipped rear .... Doom.

Honestly, I don't think I can watch the drop again. Every time I see it, I get queasy.
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:08 PM   #223
joefromsf OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARZ View Post
Interested to hear your opinion on my initial post.
Got it in another window. Reply will be coming.
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:25 PM   #224
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IMHO, JOE, you really don't want to over-think this. I like what you said about not considering crashing as a mandatory part of the ADV ride. I'd leave it at that.

Put the event in the history book and MOVE ON.
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:14 PM   #225
biosci
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Where the F*ck is the bike

Glad to hear that you are OK.

Don't spend too much time and energy second guessing yourself or everything that happened. Sometimes It happens. The main thing is ride when you feel ready. Good to have good gear.

Wifey says to me: "Get the SPOT and the GOPRO, and a neck brace."

Oh yeah, Gotta luv the DR, One Tough Muther.
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