ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > Face plant
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-11-2013, 07:51 PM   #226
joefromsf OP
Dark Happens
 
joefromsf's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: San Francisco
Oddometer: 1,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARZ View Post
First things first!!! I'm very glad you are OK. But in my opinion the most important part about this whole thread is the Post crash Forensics, and I am very glad you are covering them, and open to discussion. The FAA has an entire department dedicated to investigating and disseminating this information to keep it from happening again, mostly since the results are almost always fatal. I always tell my children (and anyone else that will listen) "You cant crash an infinite amount of times. You better learn something from EVERY one of them!"
I was a rock climber for 15 years and have been a white water rafter for over 30 years. Both of those sports had annual or occasional publications that described mostly fatal accidents and the subsequent investigations and analysis. I had a few copies and enjoyed reading them. I'm sure there are some worthwhile threads in FacePlant but in the few visits I made I didn't find them.

One common theme in many accidents in the publications is that they are not a result of ONE decision or action, but are the result of MANY decisions and actions which compound and result in a bad outcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARZ View Post
Second thing I would like to say is DO NOT unlearn "When in doubt throttle out." In my opinion if you would have been carrying more speed into this obstacle you would have had no issue. I cannot count the times this mantra has save my bacon. You cannot keep your balance at zero miles per hour. There are exceptions to this rule, but those riders are not mere mortals (Julien DuPont, Graham Jarvis, Danny McKaskill come to mind). For the general Moto population, most do not keep it in their mind, that all the benefits of the gyroscopic effect of our rotating mass (your wheels) have no effect below ~10 mph. The fact is, the slower you go the more likely you are to fall over.
You are correct (with a caveat). My riding was transformed when I finally got that and I probably shouldn't discard it so quickly. My caveat is that I don't want to put myself in the scenario where I feel like I am pushing myself (or the bike) close to our limits, in dangerous terrain and need to keep the speed up in order to be safer. I think what I might be trying to say is, I don't want my take-away to be I should have been more aggressive or riding faster. I want it to be that I should have stopped and evaluated it, like Darrell did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARZ View Post
Let me cover 3 things I believe could have caused this crash. Then I will add another "might" factory that could have initiated this downward spiral... Literally.

A. IF YOU LOOK THERE, YOU GO THERE. I believe after your rear tire was upset, you looked at the edge and this caused you to panic. If you look there you go there!!! This is a fact, a law of moto physics, every time I get on my bike I feel I am defying all known laws of physics by fitting my front tire between 2 rocks that I am 100% confident my tire should NOT fit between by an interference fit, of more than 3/4 of an inch. This event is not to be out-done by the fact that my rear tire, never experiences any more than an ever-so-slight disturbance, and in many cases NO disturbance at all!!! This only happens when I am going fast. If I go back to that obstacle, and roll through it, both tires (especially the rear) interfere quite substantially. I find it one of the most curious mysteries I experience EVERY time I ride my bike. I tell my children "Look at the gaps, not the obstacle!"
I agree 100% on the look where you want to go philosophy. I'm not sure when I became aware of the edge, but as I mentioned before I don't recall it being a part of my situational awareness as I approached the step.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARZ View Post
B. ALWAYS COVER YOUR CONTROLS. Adjust your levers so that they are comfortable to keep your fingers on them ALL OF THE TIME. The poster that claimed "sometimes fate takes over" is just plain wrong. If your fingers were on the controls, you could have pulled in the clutch and dumped the bike at the top of the hill, you weren't going that fast. Dumping your bike at the top would have been a much less spectacular result to this obstacle, but a much less spectacular story, both of which I'm sure you would have preferred.
I hear you on covering the controls. But pulling in the clutch and dumping it is contrary to gassing it out. I need to learn when gas is not appropriate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARZ View Post
C. Do not re-position your throttle hand when you move to a standing position if you will be going back and fourth (between seated and standing). I believe when you are tired you make the mistake of repositioning your hand for comfort and this was the beginning of your downfall. When the obstacle was gnarlier than expected, and your front tire was bounced harder than expected you grabbed on tighter, and had a seat. Your front tire climbed up out of the rut and to the right, and you overcompensated to the left.
I hear your advice, but didn't think I sat down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARZ View Post
Obviously all of the above are suppositions since you were the only one there to experience it, but following are a few theories I would like to throw out.

Is there any chance the bottom of the left rear bag touched the rock just before you climbed? This might explain why you were knocked to the right and over corrected to the left.

OR

Do you think your rear tire slipped left into that crevice, causing you to lose your balance to the right and over correct to the left?
No, I really doubt the left bag hit the rock before climbing. The bottom is almost 24" above the ground without me on the bike and without compression due to terrain.

HardWorkingDog also mentioned the rear tire slipping left in his post, and the resulting over correction. Having looked closer I think it is definitely possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARZ View Post
Finally, I believe if you ride more conservatively, you will crash MORE. You need to take up mountain biking, or some other form of cross training that will give you complimentary strength and skills. Heck, I advocate buying a lighter trail bike, (Honda 250X or Yamaha WR250) and hitting even harder trails for a shorter period at first then longer periods of time to build your strength and skills, they will all transfer. I know we all get older, but in this case, I do not believe slowing down is the answer.
I appreciate the advice, I really do and I know it's the right advice for someone who's goal is looking to improve.You sound like a very experienced rider, and I'm an occasional, but enthusiastic, weekend warrior. You're focusing on helping me to learn how to ride up that step. But at this point I am OK saying that I want to know my limits and stop and evaluate the step next time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARZ View Post
If this were me, I couldn't imagine showing this video to my wife and being able to talk her into letting me do it again without having a real answer as to what went wrong.

I know its hard to believe that I am stating that you should go faster, but in this case that is exactly what I am saying, and I can state many examples of why.
Right, but your focusing on what happened when I hit the step. My conversation with my wife has been about avoiding that situation in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARZ View Post
We cant crash an infinite amount of times, so you better learn from every one!
Yep. Simple and profound. Definitely sig worthy. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.
__________________
--Joe .................................... http://joefromsf.smugmug.com/

We can't crash an infinite amount of times, so you better learn from every one! (by ARZ)
joefromsf is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 08:21 PM   #227
redog1
KLR650-2009
 
redog1's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2009
Location: Magalia, CA./ Butte & Siskiyou C.
Oddometer: 1,771
I just found this today and read through all 16 pages...

...Damn, you're one lucky dude. Definitly had an angel on your shoulder.
Glad you're around to share the experience.
__________________
No, I don't know where that road goes, let's find out!
redog1
redog1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 08:30 PM   #228
crofrog
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Annapolis Maryland
Oddometer: 1,455
Quote:
Originally Posted by joefromsf View Post
I hear you on covering the controls. But pulling in the clutch and dumping it is contrary to gassing it out. I need to learn when gas is not appropriate.
The clutch is a second throttle...

you need more power suddenly (like to lighten the front end to get it over the step up) dip the clutch feed the throttle in and let clutch out.

you have to much power pull the clutch in.

When I'm riding hard on my 2 stroke I literally using the every corner. On the 4 strokes it's a decent amount less clutch work but still enough that it must be covered at all times.
crofrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 08:33 PM   #229
joefromsf OP
Dark Happens
 
joefromsf's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: San Francisco
Oddometer: 1,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by crofrog View Post
The clutch is a second throttle...

you need more power suddenly (like to lighten the front end to get it over the step up) dip the clutch feed the throttle in and let clutch out.

you have to much power pull the clutch in.

When I'm riding hard on my 2 stroke I literally using the every corner. On the 4 strokes it's a decent amount less clutch work but still enough that it must be covered at all times.
Got it. Thanks.
__________________
--Joe .................................... http://joefromsf.smugmug.com/

We can't crash an infinite amount of times, so you better learn from every one! (by ARZ)
joefromsf is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 09:21 PM   #230
ER70S-2
Beastly Adventurer
 
ER70S-2's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2009
Location: SE Denver-ish
Oddometer: 5,130
Paralysis by analysis. We ride dirt bikes and sometimes we fall down. 99.9% of the time, that would have been nothing but a low side to the left.

I'm comfortable seeing that bump that bounced the rear end and the following tire mark showing that the rear tire never regained traction: pointing the bike left (and over the edge).

You were riding a loaded bike on the TAT, not a hotrod-250cc whiz-bang-200pound-12" suspension-2 stroke.

We're dirt riders and we're human; not a computer program. Covering the levers 100% of the time in that environment; yea right. Don't question everything you could have done different in a NANOSECOND.

This is your 15 minutes and every one of us is glad you had the GoPro running. Including the Monday morning quarterbacks.

It could have been worse. I don't have a clue, someone else's photo.

__________________
2004 DR650: 60,933 miles
2013 WR250R

SUZUKI DR650SE INFORMATION INDEX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Threewheelbonnie View Post
"BTW, I don't do style. It's a dirt bike, not some girlie dress-up thing." -
ER70S-2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 10:32 PM   #231
crofrog
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Annapolis Maryland
Oddometer: 1,455
Quote:
Originally Posted by ER70S-2 View Post
We're dirt riders and we're human; not a computer program. Covering the levers 100% of the time in that environment; yea right. Don't question everything you could have done different in a NANOSECOND.
Maybe for you... I cover the levers 100% of the time on every bike I own. The only time the front brake isn't covered is when I'm full throttle. In which case my finger is sticking straight out but wont reach the brake lever any more.
crofrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 10:48 PM   #232
UtahGuido
Beastly Adventurer
 
UtahGuido's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Spine 'O the Wasatch
Oddometer: 4,354
Hey Joe,

Good observation on the post crash analysis offered up by other sports. And interesting to hear that you rock climbed and ran rivers. I still kayak quite a bit, and ski, and have learned that you need to look where you want to go. (Especially when trying to catch a critical eddy. DO NOT look downstream at where you will go if you wash out the bottom of the eddy. Focus like a terrier on the back of that eddy and GET THERE.) But motorcycling (to which I've come to only recently) has really driven home that point. I've gotten to the point where when I get in trouble I snap my head around and focus on where I want to be, 20-30 yards further up the trail.

In your video that's what struck me. Your front tire kicked left (maybe it deflected off the slope on the right) and your camera, fixed to your helmet, followed it right around and over the cliff. Imagine if the camera (and thus your head) had snapped around and pointed up the trail while the bike lunged left. You may have crashed on the trail instead of going over the side. I'm thinking that what we have on video is a pretty classic target fixation event.

Edit: Sorry about all the editing. Might want to re-read this.

And I'm truly glad you walked away and can have this discussion.
__________________
The SOP says to skin the cat just so.

UtahGuido screwed with this post 03-11-2013 at 10:56 PM
UtahGuido is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 04:26 AM   #233
RFVC600R
SAND EATER!
 
RFVC600R's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: SAND LAND
Oddometer: 2,196
That video got me shakey.... That's a lot like the trails up on up the mountains around here and I ride the kinda stuff all the time...
__________________
'83 Honda XL600R 618cc 11:1 Wiseco, XR's Only Exhaust, big tube header, 6 Sigma stage 3 carb mods

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carter Pewterschmidt View Post
He's the XL600 Jesus, his bike dies for our sins.
RFVC600R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 06:32 AM   #234
jub jub
frumiousbandersnatch
 
jub jub's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Central, GA
Oddometer: 12,151
I saw this posted in JM originally and have been going through your posts and your story. I can only add that I'm happy you made it out okay. The ending could have been much worse.

Your crash was a poignant reminder of the time I rode off a cliff while riding in the Philippines. My riding buddy and I were riding along and the ground just disappeared. We dropped about 20 feet or so. Fortunately for us, we landed in soft sand. Neither of us or the bikes were hurt. Either side of where we landed were massive rocks! We rode off like nothing happened thanking our lucky stars!

Thanks for sharing your story!
jub jub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 10:06 AM   #235
HellSickle
Scone Rider
 
HellSickle's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Location: Fort Collins
Oddometer: 8,734
Quote:
Originally Posted by ER70S-2 View Post
Paralysis by analysis. We ride dirt bikes and sometimes we fall down. 99.9% of the time, that would have been nothing but a low side to the left.

I'm comfortable seeing that bump that bounced the rear end and the following tire mark showing that the rear tire never regained traction: pointing the bike left (and over the edge).

You were riding a loaded bike on the TAT, not a hotrod-250cc whiz-bang-200pound-12" suspension-2 stroke.

We're dirt riders and we're human; not a computer program. Covering the levers 100% of the time in that environment; yea right. Don't question everything you could have done different in a NANOSECOND.

This is your 15 minutes and every one of us is glad you had the GoPro running. Including the Monday morning quarterbacks.

It could have been worse. I don't have a clue, someone else's photo.

Reminds me of this crash.

Viewing the following crash, always gives me a sinking feeling in my stomach. I can see how someone viewing these videos could develop PTSD. I can't even imagine what it would be like for the person who experienced the crash.

__________________
We don't stop riding because we get old, we get old because we stop riding.
"Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it"

HellSickle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 01:10 PM   #236
ARZ
Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Mesa AZ
Oddometer: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by joefromsf View Post
...One common theme in many accidents in the publications is that they are not a result of ONE decision or action, but are the result of MANY decisions and actions which compound and result in a bad outcome.
Agreed, the magic number seems to be at least 3 mistakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joefromsf View Post
You are correct (with a caveat). My riding was transformed when I finally got that and I probably shouldn't discard it so quickly. My caveat is that I don't want to put myself in the scenario where I feel like I am pushing myself (or the bike) close to our limits, in dangerous terrain and need to keep the speed up in order to be safer. I think what I might be trying to say is, I don't want my take-away to be I should have been more aggressive or riding faster. I want it to be that I should have stopped and evaluated it, like Darrell did.
Understood, but once going a little faster is in your bag of tricks, it does not feel "aggressive", it feels natural. I watched other stuff you rode and I don't think that was anywhere near your limit. Hence all the speculation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joefromsf View Post
I agree 100% on the look where you want to go philosophy. I'm not sure when I became aware of the edge, but as I mentioned before I don't recall it being a part of my situational awareness as I approached the step.
That's why I included the caveat "Only you were there to KNOW what happened." I'm sure its very frustrating not being able to recall those few precious minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joefromsf View Post
I hear you on covering the controls. But pulling in the clutch and dumping it is contrary to gassing it out. I need to learn when gas is not appropriate.
I understand the two are contrary, but you have to be committed to one or another. Your claimed goal of assessing the obstacle then continuing definitely would have lent itself to pulling the clutch in and dumping the bike. They say most habits only require 30 days to take hold. It is painful for your hands when you first start, but I assure you after a month, you will wonder how you ever considered the alternative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joefromsf View Post
I hear your advice, but didn't think I sat down.
Oh, it was post 196 right after the first photo, you wrote Quote: "I think I saw a comment or two somewhere that mentioned whiskey throttle (I had to look it up). Before seeing the video, that was my first thought. I figured my front bounced up when I hit the step and I fell back grabbing the throttle. I don’t think the action or sound in the video support that scenario though."

Maybe that made me think you sat down after re-adjusting your throttle hand position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joefromsf View Post
No, I really doubt the left bag hit the rock before climbing. The bottom is almost 24" above the ground without me on the bike and without compression due to terrain.
This is my biggest complaint with GoPro cameras, they have such a wide angle lens (fisheye) its very hard to judge distances unless you have something for reference. Plus ANY helmet camera seems to level out the trail, so you cant tell how steep up or down it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joefromsf View Post
HardWorkingDog also mentioned the rear tire slipping left in his post, and the resulting over correction. Having looked closer I think it is definitely possible.
Every day you learn something is a day not wasted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joefromsf View Post
I appreciate the advice, I really do and I know it's the right advice for someone who's goal is looking to improve.You sound like a very experienced rider, and I'm an occasional, but enthusiastic, weekend warrior. You're focusing on helping me to learn how to ride up that step. But at this point I am OK saying that I want to know my limits and stop and evaluate the step next time.
Granted you had given yourself TONS of time to take off, to ride, I would think that all that stopping and starting lends itself to cooling off and getting out of the groove. Keeping the speed a little higher and learning to attack smaller obstacles like this on a smaller bike would go a LONG way.

I used to ride cross country Mountain bikes pretty seriously 99% of my time was spent on my 6 inch travel bike. I was the guy that always said: "Hey guys watch this!" and it almost always went well. One summer I started to race Downhill Mountain bikes, 8 inch + travel and that's all I rode for 4+ months, (except for road miles for fitness training). When the season ended I went back to ride with my local crew, and they were going to do some pretty gnarly trails, my race bike (8in+) would never keep up on the climbs, and my 6inch travel bike was out of commission. I had one other bike as a backup that had the same brakes and hubs as my DH and 6inch bike, but this bike was definitely not suited for the kind of abuse this trail would serve. I took it anyways and told all my buddies don't wait for me, I'm just gonna walk the gnarly sections, Ill catch you guys at the bottom. At the first obstacle I happened to be leading, and it wasn't that gnarly, so I gave it a go. Sure enough it was solidly punishing my little travel bike, but all that muscle memory, (apparently knowing what these obstacles should feel like, and how you should set up for them, all transferred to the little bike). By the end of the trail I had cleaned every section on that trail, that I thought I would have to walk. Even my friends thought I was BS'ing them. Ever since I have been a firm believer in the fact that the skills will transfer. Heck they will even transfer in the opposite direction, think of Grahm Jarvis, and Taddy Bla@*%&$ (you can google it, lol), they were world class trials pros, now enduro legends.

The skills WILL transfer! I only worry when your desire to improve wanes, so will your desire to ride.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joefromsf View Post
Right, but your focusing on what happened when I hit the step. My conversation with my wife has been about avoiding that situation in the first place.
You don't have to ride any faster to get better, but with a smaller bike, you can tackle tougher and tougher obstacles, with less of a penalty for failure next to them. Building your confidence this way wont build a false sense of security, it will rebuild a solid foundation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joefromsf View Post
Yep. Simple and profound. Definitely sig worthy. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.
Like another poster here, I am Honored you found my words SIG-worthy.

Below is from another poster. Notice the local has the same problem "Not Covering the controls."
Quote:
Originally Posted by gots_a_sol View Post
Ouch. Glad to hear you are ok.

A local guy did a similar immediate left turn maneuver. His landing was a bit different though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTuX_...layer_embedded
Im not saying Im perfect by any means, and my examples of screw ups can be spectacular, but in the following video I would have had a WAY different result if I didn't cover the controls.

I had installed my helmet cam on my friends helmet, and he was videoing me. We had just finished miles and miles of some super gnarly singletrack trail at crazy speeds, and on the way back to camp the road was so un-challenging we decided to change that with a bit more speed than necessary. The day before on this same road, I did a seat bounce at a slower speed and obviously at a different angle and it came out pretty good. I didn't remember the hole so close to the edge of the road, and I was going faster so I tried it again. Only this time I was headed straight for the hole when I landed. In this case, I had 2 principals gong for me, B: When in doubt, throttle out, and C: Always cover your controls. Unfortunately I didn't follow the first rule, A: Look before you leap, or, if you look there you go there, because I couldn't see over the rise. Luckily this lesson only cost me a rim, but it could have cost MUCH more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpTCd...rYLVg&index=40
__________________
If your wife is really happy, you could be having more fun.
ARZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 01:37 PM   #237
DirtReeper
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: May 2011
Location: Southern Utah
Oddometer: 508
HOLY JESUS TAP DANCING CHRIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you are one lucky sob! glad you came out unscathed (mostly). Well I think my dad will have even more faith in his DR now...
__________________
KLR 650 KLaiRe, dirty red head
Quoth the Darth Peach: "Must work to afford Bikethings"
Quoth Dorzok, it's a BMW. just activate the levitation function that's part of the optional accessory outer space adventure package.
DirtReeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 01:51 PM   #238
redog1
KLR650-2009
 
redog1's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2009
Location: Magalia, CA./ Butte & Siskiyou C.
Oddometer: 1,771
I'm no professional rider but I've been riding...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crofrog View Post
Maybe for you... I cover the levers 100% of the time on every bike I own. The only time the front brake isn't covered is when I'm full throttle. In which case my finger is sticking straight out but wont reach the brake lever any more.
since I was 9 yo. I don't know everything and I ain't shit on a bike but I have to call B/S when I see it. REALLY 100% of the time? B/S. Think about it REALLY. Sorry, Don't want to start a pissin match in your thread but enough of the arm chair 1/4 backing. The guy had an accident, it happens, thankfully he lived through it, let it go.
__________________
No, I don't know where that road goes, let's find out!
redog1
redog1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 02:20 PM   #239
RFVC600R
SAND EATER!
 
RFVC600R's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: SAND LAND
Oddometer: 2,196
Puke

All of those videos are in very similar terrains I ride in. the first video and that KTM guy hitting those two rocks made me sick
__________________
'83 Honda XL600R 618cc 11:1 Wiseco, XR's Only Exhaust, big tube header, 6 Sigma stage 3 carb mods

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carter Pewterschmidt View Post
He's the XL600 Jesus, his bike dies for our sins.
RFVC600R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 02:30 PM   #240
joefromsf OP
Dark Happens
 
joefromsf's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: San Francisco
Oddometer: 1,458
Again ARZ, thanks for the post. I'll definitely work on covering the controls, as its easily done by just riding my existing bikes. I know the benefits of muscle memory (from rock climbing), but the smaller bike thing just isn't likely to happen. I live in the middle of San Francisco. It's about 1.5 hours to OHV parks and 2.5 - 3 hours to all day dirt riding in National Forests. I rarely get out for day rides, more common are long planned weekend or weeklong adventures.

Anyway, glad I'm here to share this adventure. Maybe see you around a campfire sometime.
__________________
--Joe .................................... http://joefromsf.smugmug.com/

We can't crash an infinite amount of times, so you better learn from every one! (by ARZ)
joefromsf is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 11:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014