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Old 03-14-2013, 05:21 PM   #16
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Ok, lots to process here...just a question...

Why would you wear a WP LINER underneath your riding jacket? Granted the water would pass thru the jacket and be repelled by the WP liner, but doesn't that just leave you with riding apparel that is cold next to your skin? It would seem to me the wet WP liner would be quite cold as wind passes over the outer jacket and it cools by convection? This is BMW's approach to waterproof gear, isn't it? Permeable cordura on the outside, but underneath a Gore Tex liner...

Wouldn't you stay warmer if the layer next to your skin was not covered in moisture?

Just wondering...
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Old 03-14-2013, 06:35 PM   #17
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Ok, lots to process here...just a question...

Why would you wear a WP LINER underneath your riding jacket? Granted the water would pass thru the jacket and be repelled by the WP liner, but doesn't that just leave you with riding apparel that is cold next to your skin? It would seem to me the wet WP liner would be quite cold as wind passes over the outer jacket and it cools by convection? This is BMW's approach to waterproof gear, isn't it? Permeable cordura on the outside, but underneath a Gore Tex liner...

Wouldn't you stay warmer if the layer next to your skin was not covered in moisture?

Just wondering...
It is mostly a cost/benefit thing.

If it's like 60f+ and raining, it's not a big deal. If it's lower, you put in your insulating layer that you have hopefully brought for your trip. But below a certain temperature, it stops raining and starts snowing, and then it doesn't really matter anymore.

For a large majority of riders who cannot afford $400+jackets using laminates, waterproof jackets typically use z-liners. That is, the outer shell is not waterproof, and the membrane is sandwiched between the shell and mesh lining. Performance is more or less the same as above

Some of the advantages of removable liners are:
  • Lower cost compared to laminates for similar features
  • Liner can be removed in hot weather
  • Liner is protected in minor crashes
  • Liners are hard for manufacturers to get wrong and are fairly reliable(I have had a lot of vented suits leak, including gore-tex ones)
  • Leaks in the liner can be easily identified and repaired
  • Repairs can be made to the outer shell without special fabrics or equipment (seam tape)

You are basically looking at a firstgear kilimanjaro as the cheapest laminate, with the next step up being an Aerostich darien, and from there on up, costs keep climbing and fast! Those are some big bucks for something than can be damaged so easily.
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Old 03-14-2013, 07:01 PM   #18
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I am appreciating this wealth of information. Thanks for your well thought out response.

Steve
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Old 03-14-2013, 07:38 PM   #19
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Ok, lots to process here...just a question...

Why would you wear a WP LINER underneath your riding jacket? Granted the water would pass thru the jacket and be repelled by the WP liner, but doesn't that just leave you with riding apparel that is cold next to your skin? It would seem to me the wet WP liner would be quite cold as wind passes over the outer jacket and it cools by convection? This is BMW's approach to waterproof gear, isn't it? Permeable cordura on the outside, but underneath a Gore Tex liner...

Wouldn't you stay warmer if the layer next to your skin was not covered in moisture?

Just wondering...
You're correct.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:42 PM   #20
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Unfortunately, I'm not planning a 6 mon. trip right now, but I do think about this question often. The first two questions to ask yourself are whether you want to be waterproof 100% of the time, or if you want the versatility of perhaps a lighter, cooler suit when it isn't raining.

Real Estate being what it is on a bike, I would try to maximize the use of everything I took with me. For me, that would rule out multiple liner suits, favoring a GoreTex laminated one, unless I chose to ditch all the liners from those suits and use other garments for protection from the cold/rain. ie: a nice waterproof shell type jacket to wear for the rain on the bike, or around town. A nice fleece, vs the zip in liner that you can't use in that capacity.

Now, if you're like me, you despise fabric flapping in the wind, which is the only reason I would then take that waterproof jacket and wear it under the gear. I find that goofy, and it sucks in the cold, but the flapping is brutal...

Instead, I would opt for a GoreTex laminated shell with lots of venting. Unfortunately, that rules out what may be the best piece of motorcycling gear I've ever owned, the Rukka Armas. From where we stand today, looking at gear, I'd have to go with the Klim Badlands Pro, as trendy as that may seem. Reviews are great, and its hard to beat the long list of features on the suit, including GoreTex Proshell, armacor, latest D3O armor, chest armor and lots of venting. With the waterproofing out of the way, I'd then look for the most packable waterproof shell and fleece I could find that roll up the smallest and take up the least space. You'll need that waterproof jacket when you're wandering a new town and its raining.

If I chose not to go the 100% waterproof direction, without question, it would be a Motoport Stretch Kevlar suit. For protection, not much out there can touch it.

Protection is a no brainer, and any of the higher end suits will protect you well enough. I mean, some are better than others, but we're riding motorcycles aren't we? Hardly the smartest thing to do if safety is your number one priority. Notice that I'm making that statement in the same post that I'm mentioning manufacturers like Klim, Rukka & Motoport. The best of the best for sure. I'm not telling you to blow off protection in favor of jeans and a T-shirt.

So, the conclusion I've come to if I was taking off on a trip like yours would be my trusty Motoport stretch kevlar Ultra II pants (in your case, AD1's) and I'd force myself to replace my Armas (come on Rukka, build us a jacket with adequate venting!) jacket with a Badlands Pro. That seems like a very good combination of protection, versatility and comfort.
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:01 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by levain View Post
Unfortunately, I'm not planning a 6 mon. trip right now, but I do think about this question often. The first two questions to ask yourself are whether you want to be waterproof 100% of the time, or if you want the versatility of perhaps a lighter, cooler suit when it isn't raining.

Real Estate being what it is on a bike, I would try to maximize the use of everything I took with me. For me, that would rule out multiple liner suits, favoring a GoreTex laminated one, unless I chose to ditch all the liners from those suits and use other garments for protection from the cold/rain. ie: a nice waterproof shell type jacket to wear for the rain on the bike, or around town. A nice fleece, vs the zip in liner that you can't use in that capacity.

Now, if you're like me, you despise fabric flapping in the wind, which is the only reason I would then take that waterproof jacket and wear it under the gear. I find that goofy, and it sucks in the cold, but the flapping is brutal...

Instead, I would opt for a GoreTex laminated shell with lots of venting. Unfortunately, that rules out what may be the best piece of motorcycling gear I've ever owned, the Rukka Armas. From where we stand today, looking at gear, I'd have to go with the Klim Badlands Pro, as trendy as that may seem. Reviews are great, and its hard to beat the long list of features on the suit, including GoreTex Proshell, latest D3O armor, chest armor and lots of venting. With the waterproofing out of the way, I'd then look for the most packable waterproof shell and fleece I could find that roll up the smallest and take up the least space. You'll need that waterproof jacket when you're wandering a new town and its raining.

If I chose not to go the 100% waterproof direction, without question, it would be a Motoport Stretch Kevlar suit. For protection, not much out there can touch it.

Protection is a no brainer, and any of the higher end suits will protect you well enough. I mean, some are better than others, but we're riding motorcycles aren't we? Hardly the smartest thing to do if safety is your number one priority. Notice that I'm making that statement in the same post that I'm mentioning manufacturers like Klim, Rukka & Motoport. The best of the best for sure. I'm not telling you to blow off protection in favor of jeans and a T-shirt.

So, the conclusion I've come to if I was taking off on a trip like yours would be my trusty Motoport stretch kevlar Ultra II pants (in your case, AD1's) and I'd force myself to replace my Armas (come on Rukka, build us a jacket with adequate venting!) jacket with a Badlands Pro. That seems like a very good combination of protection, versatility and comfort.
That's a well thought post about two brands of gear that are hanging in my closet. I have not had the badlands long enough to try it in hot weather yet. Today we hit 85 and I used the Motoport Kevlar mesh jacket and stretch Kevlar pants for the first time in months and I'm not sure that it is any better than the Badlands will be in warmer weather. Yesterday we hit 82 and I wore the badlands for a 250 mile trip and was comfortable without opening the vents.
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:26 PM   #22
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I had tried a badlands pro jacket after my little fiasco with the latitude...it leaked in the same way, just like this guy. I also had some leakage down the pit zips.

I really like the idea of a vented waterproof laminate, but in my experience, it is rarely executed to do both well. Funny thing too, because I ride a WR250x and you'd think the design for adventure touring/dual sporting would take into account the minimal fairing, but no.

The d3o supplied with the jacket also stress cracks in the cold and will split in half. You will need to consider the cost of swapping out the armor if you will be riding in colder climates...


I love these new high tech suits and embrace them as being the way of the future. Some of them however, requires more intensive care than separate solutions, and as levain mentioned, you'd probably need a separate around town waterproof jacket anyway!

With my piss poor luck with laminates, the only set I would even consider bringing on an extended trip is an Aerostich darien/ad1 as they are unlined, and comparably MUCH easier to repair/service compared to lined garments. I'd probably upgrade the armor cause I think their stuff sucks, but that's another topic.
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:38 PM   #23
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I spent 5+ hours riding through the rockies last spring in cold (2 - 5 degrees c), record setting rainfall. I had the internal gortex liner in my Rev-It defender suit. The outer layer quickly became saturated and it was very cold. I was unaware that water found its way inside my gortex liner and I was soaked to the skin. I turned on my heated vest at one point and didn't realize that the vest was the only thing keeping me from becoming hypothermic. When we reached our destination and I turned the vest off I was convulsing uncontrollably from the cold within minutes. I couldn't get out of the cold, wet clothes fast enough - it took a lot of tequila to thaw me out that night.

Based on reviews I've read on the net, my next jacket will be a Klim Badlands Pro. I will never again rely on internal layers for waterproofing.
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Old 03-16-2013, 06:01 AM   #24
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The d3o supplied with the jacket also stress cracks in the cold and will split in half. You will need to consider the cost of swapping out the armor if you will be riding in colder climates...

This is a huge issue with so many of the latest armor. The manufacturers will claim that it softens with body heat, but in my experience that isn't remotely possible. I mean, if its cold enough that the armor needs your body heat to soften up, isn't your body being insulated from the armor which is on the outside in the cold? In my experience, it has never softened up, and remains hard and uncomfortable. With that in mind, I'll amend my recommendation, by replacing the D30 with T-Pro. Problem solved. The leaking that Keiji mentions is a serious issue though. Maybe, that is why Rukka won't build a suit with real venting?
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Old 03-16-2013, 07:57 AM   #25
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With my piss poor luck with laminates, the only set I would even consider bringing on an extended trip is an Aerostich darien/ad1 as they are unlined, and comparably MUCH easier to repair/service compared to lined garments. I'd probably upgrade the armor cause I think their stuff sucks, but that's another topic.
Based on everything you folks have commented on, I am inclined to think Darien Light Jacket, sized big enough to throw a fleece or Gerbings jacket underneath...Since I ride "cooler" it would be important for me to be able to wear layers underneath. When really hot, the Darien Light seems to have enough vents to keep me comfy enough.

The other serious contender is a Moto Port 3/4 length cordura jacket, matched to my trusty AD 1 pants.

Lots of good input here-

S
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Old 03-16-2013, 11:03 PM   #26
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I spent 5+ hours riding through the rockies last spring in cold (2 - 5 degrees c), record setting rainfall. I had the internal gortex liner in my Rev-It defender suit. The outer layer quickly became saturated and it was very cold. I was unaware that water found its way inside my gortex liner and I was soaked to the skin. I turned on my heated vest at one point and didn't realize that the vest was the only thing keeping me from becoming hypothermic. When we reached our destination and I turned the vest off I was convulsing uncontrollably from the cold within minutes. I couldn't get out of the cold, wet clothes fast enough - it took a lot of tequila to thaw me out that night.

Based on reviews I've read on the net, my next jacket will be a Klim Badlands Pro. I will never again rely on internal layers for waterproofing.
If water got through a Gore-tex liner, why would you expect a Gore-tex shell to do any better?
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Old 03-20-2013, 06:33 AM   #27
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If water got through a Gore-tex liner, why would you expect a Gore-tex shell to do any better?
there's a major amount of difference between water getting through a few places in an external goretex layer vs your entire outer suit soaked and have water get through goretex liner.

wet/cold in temps right above freezing can be down right dangerous!

have not been able to figure out how to travel from 110f+ to cold/wet at freezing with one suit. isn't Klim testing a two suit solution, using mesh kevlar and fitted goretex outer layer?
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:18 AM   #28
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have not been able to figure out how to travel from 110f+ to cold/wet at freezing with one suit. isn't Klim testing a two suit solution, using mesh kevlar and fitted goretex outer layer?
I think the "uber" suit is chasing the grail....Freezing to 110? Probably never gonna happen...On tours in the western US it's pretty common to go from the mid forties to 100+. For me, that means layers and wetting down tee shirts depending on the temps. My Olympia AST2 handles these conditions quite well. As I'd mentioned in my OP, the rain is the deal breaker.

As an update, I'm thinking about a Motoport 3/4 length cordura jacket, or a Darien "light" along with my AD1 pants. So many great opinions here...
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:32 AM   #29
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As an update, I'm thinking about a Motoport 3/4 length cordura jacket, ...
That's got to be the best deal on earth in safe motorcycling. I bet they'd also do a Marathon in Cordura if you prefer the style. I prefer my Marathon to the Ultra II I had.
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:59 AM   #30
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That's got to be the best deal on earth in safe motorcycling. I bet they'd also do a Marathon in Cordura if you prefer the style. I prefer my Marathon to the Ultra II I had.

Yes, I checked out the jacket in Cordura. With the Aero Tex liner it seems like it would be very versatile for a long ride.

The only sticking point is still the WP liner UNDERNEATH the outer jacket. Of course, Motoport says this is the best way to go...The Riderwearhouse guys say just the opposite.

Decisions, decisions...

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