ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Gear > Equipment
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 08-27-2013, 11:47 AM   #61
gravityisnotmyfriend
Studly Adventurer
 
gravityisnotmyfriend's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Location: ((kg*m)/s^2), IA, USA
Oddometer: 947
That's the thing. I've sat in a lecture hall learning physics. I've got my Bachelor's in Mechanical Engineering and am two semesters away from my Master's in Engineering.

I'd love someone to explain to me how it works, because based on my understanding of Newtonian physics, I can't see how it does.

The big problem I have is that the website says that the concept works off of Newton's 1st law, then they hand wave over what's actually going on, and settle on a dynamically balanced tire.

If they want to claim PFM, or holy water, or the force - that's fine. I don't understand how those work. But, if you claim Newton's 1st law - you'd better back it up.
gravityisnotmyfriend is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 11:52 AM   #62
gravityisnotmyfriend
Studly Adventurer
 
gravityisnotmyfriend's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Location: ((kg*m)/s^2), IA, USA
Oddometer: 947
Quote:
Originally Posted by 16VGTIDave View Post

I have my own anecdotal evidence that Dynabeads work, based on my own un-scientific testing. But I can't prove that they work. Certainly not to someone who is skeptical.


I'm completely uninterested in proving that they don't work. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from using dynabeads. If they actually work, they would be a great product and a great way to simply and inexpensively balance a tire. I really want to believe that they work - which is why I'm really hoping someone can explain it to me.

But, I'm not going to put a bunch of little ceramic balls in my tires with results based on faith alone.
gravityisnotmyfriend is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 12:25 PM   #63
Yossarian™
Deputy Cultural Attaché
 
Yossarian™'s Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: the 'Ha
Oddometer: 9,308
Typical Dynabeads argument (apply to any such thread):

Skeptic: They can't possibly work. I have anecdotal evidence.

Proponent: They can and do work. (Cites common physics)

Skeptic: If they worked more people would use them.

Proponent: Just because the old technology (weights) is widespread, does not mean beads don't work.

Skeptic: If they worked racing teams would use them.

Proponent: Maybe they do. Would you advertise an advantage, unless paid?

Skeptic: You don't know jack.

Proponent: Have it your way. (or, alternately, discussion devolves into argument.)

-------------------------------------------------------

Use them if you want, don't use them if you don't want.
__________________
Successfully surviving motorcycling since 1976.
Yossarian™ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 12:39 PM   #64
the kaz
has become "FERAL"
 
the kaz's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: West Coast EH.....
Oddometer: 1,669
Quote:
Originally Posted by 16VGTIDave View Post
Because their tire sponsors won't let them? Because the manufacturers or distributors of DynaBeads aren't paying big bucks for sponsorships? Rules? What difference does it make? Motorsports and "the real world" are not even close to the same. "Similar" would be stretching the truth. With specially manufactured competition tire's life being measured in hours or a few hundred miles, what tires and balancing method they use is irrelevant to the guy commuting to work or riding across the country.
why would the tire sponsors disallow their use ?
__________________
< spell cheqeur is bustimicated >
the kaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 12:42 PM   #65
the kaz
has become "FERAL"
 
the kaz's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: West Coast EH.....
Oddometer: 1,669
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian™ View Post
Typical Dynabeads argument (apply to any such thread):

Skeptic: They can't possibly work. I have anecdotal evidence.

Proponent: They can and do work. (Cites common physics)

Skeptic: If they worked more people would use them.

Proponent: Just because the old technology (weights) is widespread, does not mean beads don't work.

Skeptic: If they worked racing teams would use them.

Proponent: Maybe they do. Would you advertise an advantage, unless paid?

Skeptic: You don't know jack.

Proponent: Have it your way. (or, alternately, discussion devolves into argument.)

-------------------------------------------------------

Use them if you want, don't use them if you don't want.

can I use this in an oil thread or chainlube thread ?
__________________
< spell cheqeur is bustimicated >
the kaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 12:49 PM   #66
16VGTIDave
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: Drumbo, Ontario, Canada
Oddometer: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by the kaz View Post
why would the tire sponsors disallow their use ?
Do you know of any tire manufacturers that endorse beads in any application? I don't. But I have read manufacturers claims regarding precision manufacturing, top quality materials, etc. Endorsing a third party product to enhance their own product would be a marketing nightmare. Regardless of the truth...
16VGTIDave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 01:12 PM   #67
the kaz
has become "FERAL"
 
the kaz's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: West Coast EH.....
Oddometer: 1,669
Quote:
Originally Posted by 16VGTIDave View Post
Do you know of any tire manufacturers that endorse beads in any application? I don't. But I have read manufacturers claims regarding precision manufacturing, top quality materials, etc. Endorsing a third party product to enhance their own product would be a marketing nightmare. Regardless of the truth...
ya good point .....
__________________
< spell cheqeur is bustimicated >
the kaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 01:18 PM   #68
the kaz
has become "FERAL"
 
the kaz's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: West Coast EH.....
Oddometer: 1,669
I am skeptic as I do work in the industry ...... but you dynabead guys keep going at it because a few years ago we all laughed at TPMs but look at what happened with that
__________________
< spell cheqeur is bustimicated >
the kaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 01:23 PM   #69
gravityisnotmyfriend
Studly Adventurer
 
gravityisnotmyfriend's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Location: ((kg*m)/s^2), IA, USA
Oddometer: 947
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian™ View Post
Typical Dynabeads argument (apply to any such thread):

Skeptic: They can't possibly work. I have anecdotal evidence.

Proponent: They can and do work. (Cites common physics)

Skeptic: If they worked more people would use them.

Proponent: Just because the old technology (weights) is widespread, does not mean beads don't work.

Skeptic: If they worked racing teams would use them.

Proponent: Maybe they do. Would you advertise an advantage, unless paid?

Skeptic: You don't know jack.

Proponent: Have it your way. (or, alternately, discussion devolves into argument.)

-------------------------------------------------------

Use them if you want, don't use them if you don't want.

Maybe typical - but that's not how this one is going. More like:

Skeptic (me): I understand that lots of people use them. I don't understand how they work. I wish someone would explain it to me.

Proponent: They can and do work. I don't know how and am not interested it learning it.

Skeptic:I checked the website and their explanations don't make sense.

Proponent: I don't care what you think. I'm using them and don't' care whether or not it makes sense.

Skeptic: Leaves thread.
gravityisnotmyfriend is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 01:49 PM   #70
16VGTIDave
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: Drumbo, Ontario, Canada
Oddometer: 327
You are asking the wrong people for a scientific explanation. Ask a physicist or some other PHD. I'm a college graduate, I work for a living...

Better yet, try them yourself, even if it is riding someones bike who has them. Then add a few grams of weight to the rear tire and ride it again. If it vibrates, you know that either the beads don't work, or there aren't enough to balance out the added weight.
16VGTIDave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2013, 05:19 AM   #71
gravityisnotmyfriend
Studly Adventurer
 
gravityisnotmyfriend's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Location: ((kg*m)/s^2), IA, USA
Oddometer: 947
You don't need to be a Physicist to understand Newton's 1st law. And, I have no idea what a PhD would know about dynabeads.

I'm open to any explanation. I just haven't heard one.

And yes, I could do some experimentation. But, I could also search for Russel's Teapot.

I don't know what dynamically balancing an aircraft prop has anything to do with it - unless you run it up and throw a bunch of ceramic balls at it. The way I've seen it done involves mounting sensors to the plane and analyzing the vibrations with a computer. If you get your mounted tires balanced in the conventional way, it's similarly complicated.

I'm not arguing the merits of a balanced wheel/tire - just curious about the methods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian™ View Post

Proponent: They can and do work. (Cites common physics)
I'm not trying to be snarky here. What common physics to these proponents cite?
gravityisnotmyfriend is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2013, 05:35 AM   #72
kantuckid
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Kentucky-Eastern that is!
Oddometer: 2,662
I'm a proponent... had them in a bunch of MC tires. I worked in the largest tire plant in the world maintaining & installing machinery in every part of the plant.I served an 8,000 hr apprenticeship that floated around to every part of the operation. Thus I represent an expert opinion (?) & if I say they work-they work?
I've been around the block when it comes to MC's,racing cars,working on both,etc. & like the beads. A tire does not stay in balance after lots of wear occurs unless it is rebalanced. MC tires have relatively short lives but they still are subject to cupping, side wear from hwy angles , chicken tracks and other variables. For me-get that part- for me they keep my tres in balance for the life of the tire & are inexpensive,reusable & effective.
This can rant on (as bead threads do) but I suggest that trying them is a more interesting way to find out than waiting for Mr. Rogers to test them for you or some physicist to come along with the "real proof".
Sure, I'd like to hear a science based explanation but for me they work. Try them or not try them or... well words are cheap & so are beads-I got my stock from a group buy here several years back but keep reusing them as easy to do and just add a few and reweigh to make up for the escapees.

Scepticisim is healthy? Maybe so
__________________
"If I had my life to live over,I'd dare to make more mistakes next time...I'd relax,I'd limber up.I'd be sillier than this trip, take fewer things seriously, I would take more chances... take more trips...climb more mountains...swim more rivers...eat more ice cream." Jorge Luis Borges, at age 85
kantuckid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2013, 05:46 AM   #73
hugemoth
Beastly Adventurer
 
hugemoth's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Bend, Oregon summer, Snowbird in winter
Oddometer: 2,541
Here's a mercury balancer for ultralight aircraft props. Same principal as beads in tires. http://www.balancemasters.com/ultralights/ Some of my friends use these and say they work well.

Also lots of info if you google "washing machine balancing ring". Same principle there too. As a former appliance repair man I know for a fact they work, and most washing machines have them. I've replaced many that have cracked and leaked causing a balance problem.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gravityisnotmyfriend View Post

I don't know what dynamically balancing an aircraft prop has anything to do with it - unless you run it up and throw a bunch of ceramic balls at it. The way I've seen it done involves mounting sensors to the plane and analyzing the vibrations with a computer. If you get your mounted tires balanced in the conventional way, it's similarly complicated.
hugemoth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2013, 05:49 AM   #74
El Gato
Studly Adventurer
 
El Gato's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Location: Los Gatos, CA
Oddometer: 629
Quote:
Originally Posted by 16VGTIDave View Post
Maybe the correct person(s) haven't been paid to provide the answers? I don't know and it doesn't matter to me.
Gosh, don't you think that Dynabeads would have a little bit of an incentive to find such a person if they can't explain it properly themselves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 16VGTIDave View Post
I have dealt with numerous people who didn't/couldn't/wouldn't comprehend the difference between static and dynamic balancing as it applies to aviation, and refused to pay for dynamic prop balancing. Even though it has been proven to reduce maintenance costs and improve inflight comfort. It baffled me why these people refused to spend a couple hundred dollars, yet they complained about vibrations or having to replace thousands of $ of damaged avionics every 18 months. And one of their first arguments was how dynamic balancing wasn't recommended or endorsed by manufacturers. Followed by arguments of "the engine is balanced at the factory, so is the prop". And yet they had vibrations, felt or otherwise...
Every attempt to show the benefits of Dynabeads on a dynamic tire/wheel balancer have failed to do so. How is it that you can be such a supporter of dynamic balancing and also believe in Dynabeads?


Quote:
Originally Posted by 16VGTIDave View Post
I used to wear a copper bracelet that had magnets in it. I didn't notice a difference so I stopped wearing it. A friend wears a Q-Ray bracelet and swears it is the best thing for his sex life. I say it is his 26 year old bride... Chinese medicine has many treatments that Western medicine can't rationalize. Doesn't make it any less effective for them. Placebo "pain relief" pills have made many feel better in clinical trials, sometimes even more than the actual medication.

I have my own anecdotal evidence that Dynabeads work, based on my own un-scientific testing. But I can't prove that they work. Certainly not to someone who is skeptical. And that doesn't bother me in the least. I do, however, get annoyed by those who insist that because they don't understand how the beads work, that the beads can't work. Or those who had a failure of some sort, and happened to using the beads at that time, so they believe the beads MUST have been the cause of the problem.
So you readily accept the possibility (probability?) that the only benefit of Dynabeads is a placebo effect? And you're annoyed at me for being skeptical?

I have a new product for you. It's called the "Dynaband". No need to bother with the hassle and mess of putting little beads in your tires every time you change tires. Just wear the Dynaband on your wrist and it will balance the tires of any motorized vehicle you're riding in. Sounds pretty good, eh? Paypal me $50 and I'll send you one over.
__________________
---
El Gato is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2013, 07:14 AM   #75
16VGTIDave
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: Drumbo, Ontario, Canada
Oddometer: 327
Dynabeads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gato View Post
Gosh, don't you think that Dynabeads would have a little bit of an incentive to find such a person if they can't explain it properly themselves?
Not my concern. Have you asked them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gato View Post
Every attempt to show the benefits of Dynabeads on a dynamic tire/wheel balancer have failed to do so. How is it that you can be such a supporter of dynamic balancing and also believe in Dynabeads?
Dynamic balancing on aircraft is done at operational speeds and with operational loading. Tire balancing machines only spin balance at a set rpm with no load on the tire. Noticeable difference in the test conditions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gato View Post
So you readily accept the possibility (probability?) that the only benefit of Dynabeads is a placebo effect? And you're annoyed at me for being skeptical?
Like I said earlier, I've done my own testing and proven to myself that they work. You can be sceptical, as you should be of most things you are told these days. But insisting the beads can't work, because you don't understand how they could work, and we can't explain it to you, is what gets me. I'm just another end user, berating me for not having the answers to your questions is silly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gato View Post
I have a new product for you. It's called the "Dynaband". No need to bother with the hassle and mess of putting little beads in your tires every time you change tires. Just wear the Dynaband on your wrist and it will balance the tires of any motorized vehicle you're riding in. Sounds pretty good, eh? Paypal me $50 and I'll send you one over.
Sounds great! Design it, make it, package it, market it, and I'll consider ordering it. But, I'll wait until you get desperate and offer them 2 for 1 with expedited shipping. Unless your website can explain, and make me understand to my satisfaction, how it works I'll be demanding a full refund from Paypal or my credit card, and then bad mouthing your product on forums. Heck, I'll even blame your product for anything remotely related to any vehicle I've come within sight of. But I'll never contact you directly...


Sent from my iPad2
16VGTIDave is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 06:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014