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Old 12-14-2013, 07:47 AM   #91
rocker59
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Originally Posted by ph0rk View Post
What's to hate?

How often do you apply the front brake and wish to not apply the rear? I can't think of a single time I wanted that to happen.

Most modern linked brakes are linked at the front lever and the rear pedal operates the rear brakes independently. The linked brakes on my r1200r work brilliantly.
That's not "The Guzzi Way". Keep in mind that Guzzi was first to market with integrated brakes back in the 1970s.

On a Guzzi (California Vintage / 90 was the last with the system), the foot pedal controls the rear brake and one front rotor. The hand lever controls one front rotor. There was a proportioning valve that helped control front/rear bias for the integrated foot brake.

I guess it was that way from the Lemans of 1976, through the California 90 of 2012. The Small Block, Spine Frame, and CARC models never had the Guzzi Integrated Braking System. Only the Tonti-framed bikes.
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Old 12-14-2013, 08:07 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by rocker59 View Post
On a Guzzi (California Vintage / 90 was the last with the system), the foot pedal controls the rear brake and one front rotor. The hand lever controls one front rotor. There was a proportioning valve that helped control front/rear bias for the integrated foot brake.
Well that certainly sounds bass-ackwards
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Old 12-14-2013, 10:06 AM   #93
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Well that certainly sounds bass-ackwards
My '91 LeMans has the system. Works fine.
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Old 12-14-2013, 02:27 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by rocker59 View Post
My '91 LeMans has the system. Works fine.
I'm sure I could get used to it, but I can see why some people might hate it.
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Old 12-14-2013, 02:28 PM   #95
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My '91 LeMans has the system. Works fine.
No it doesn't! Got into a horrible tank-slapper at high speed on a LeMans once. Eased off the throttle (as you do) but front end continued lockstop to lockstop, so eased I on the rear brake (as you should) which had the effect of locking the front wheel mid-oscillation. Muggings was instantly flicked up into a handstand to land back into the tank & RHS cylinder head (badly bruised nuts & knee) but my weight landing back on the front of the bike killed the tank-slapper & I was able to pull over in tears of pain. Biggest non-crash I've ever had. I delinked the brakes on my subsequent Guzzi's

BTW Rocker59 the small block Guzzi's had linked brakes as well. I have ridden three different v50 Monza's & two different v65 (one with those horrible pushrod 4 valve heads) and they all had linked brakes.
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Old 12-14-2013, 11:33 PM   #96
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No it doesn't! Got into a horrible tank-slapper at high speed on a LeMans once. Eased off the throttle (as you do) but front end continued lockstop to lockstop, so eased I on the rear brake (as you should) which had the effect of locking the front wheel mid-oscillation. Muggings was instantly flicked up into a handstand to land back into the tank & RHS cylinder head (badly bruised nuts & knee) but my weight landing back on the front of the bike killed the tank-slapper & I was able to pull over in tears of pain. Biggest non-crash I've ever had. I delinked the brakes on my subsequent Guzzi's

BTW Rocker59 the small block Guzzi's had linked brakes as well. I have ridden three different v50 Monza's & two different v65 (one with those horrible pushrod 4 valve heads) and they all had linked brakes.
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Old 12-15-2013, 08:12 PM   #97
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Must be quite the hard-charger to get an early LeMans into a tank-slapper!

Admittedly, my knowledge of the small block bikes grows weaker the farther back in time one goes. Guess I need to brush up on my V50/V65 info.
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Old 12-15-2013, 11:37 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by ph0rk View Post
What's to hate?

How often do you apply the front brake and wish to not apply the rear? I can't think of a single time I wanted that to happen.

Most modern linked brakes are linked at the front lever and the rear pedal operates the rear brakes independently. The linked brakes on my r1200r work brilliantly.
I rarely use the rear brake. Low speed maneuvers in parking lots and off road on dirt bikes/dual sports is about it. When you need to brake, the rear does not provide any breaking capability. It’s simple physics. Too little weight back there when you’re breaking hard.
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Old 12-16-2013, 05:22 AM   #99
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I rarely use the rear brake. Low speed maneuvers in parking lots and off road on dirt bikes/dual sports is about it. When you need to brake, the rear does not provide any breaking capability. It’s simple physics. Too little weight back there when you’re breaking hard.
So why not let a computer calculate the maximum amount of rear braking that can be applied in a given stop? I don't lift the rear wheel every time I stop (not that I could with ABS on). I'm not riding a supersport bike, and the rear brake is still able to provide 20-30% of my bike's total stopping power.

In that scenario, using only the front lever on a linked-brake bike will stop you faster than using only the front lever on the same bike with linked brakes disabled. (Assuming BMW, Honda, Yamaha style linked brakes). Maybe my bike is just heavy, but you can feel the rear pedal engage quite a bit in most stops and the rear wheel doesn't lock, nor does ABS engage.
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Old 12-16-2013, 05:53 AM   #100
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So why not let a computer calculate

Some of us ride motorcycles to get away from computers and other electronic intrusions into our daily lives...
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Old 12-16-2013, 06:05 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by rocker59 View Post
Some of us ride motorcycles to get away from computers and other electronic intrusions into our daily lives...
Exactly!

As far as using/not using the rear brake...if you choose not to, you're giving up a lot of control on a bike. A Guzzi has more rearward weight bias than many bikes and the rear brake is quite effective in shortening your stopping distance vs. Just using the front. It's also helpful in controlling weight transfer, settling the suspension and adjusting your lean angle during cornering.

I've never understood why some people choose not to take advantage of all the performance and control advantages that using the rear brake offers.
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Old 12-16-2013, 07:01 AM   #102
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Exactly!

As far as using/not using the rear brake...if you choose not to, you're giving up a lot of control on a bike. A Guzzi has more rearward weight bias than many bikes and the rear brake is quite effective in shortening your stopping distance vs. Just using the front. It's also helpful in controlling weight transfer, settling the suspension and adjusting your lean angle during cornering.

I've never understood why some people choose not to take advantage of all the performance and control advantages that using the rear brake offers.

Well next someone will say that it is too hard to modulate both the rear brake and the front brake in a hard stop without locking up the rear, the front, or both. (Which is of course the point of the computer).

And, if stopping quickly is a good thing, a smart linked braking system will do it faster than a human can most of the time without being intrusive or acting weird, and you can still operate the rear brake manually for low speed maneuvers or weight transfers. You can even apply additional rear braking while the linked system is in-use.

If you want to be a luddite, fine, but don't pretend your super-human reflexes are as safe as reflexes plus technological aids. The computers only do what people program them to do, anyway.
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Old 12-16-2013, 07:31 AM   #103
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I modulate front to rear braking bias all the time.

Just like shifting gears, it's something I prefer to do on my motorcycles.

Next thing, you'll be asking why motorcycles still have manual transmissions when a computer can do it better.

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Old 12-16-2013, 11:36 AM   #104
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Laugh

Quote:
Originally Posted by ph0rk View Post
Well next someone will say that it is too hard to modulate both the rear brake and the front brake in a hard stop without locking up the rear, the front, or both. (Which is of course the point of the computer).

And, if stopping quickly is a good thing, a smart linked braking system will do it faster than a human can most of the time without being intrusive or acting weird, and you can still operate the rear brake manually for low speed maneuvers or weight transfers. You can even apply additional rear braking while the linked system is in-use.

If you want to be a luddite, fine, but don't pretend your super-human reflexes are as safe as reflexes plus technological aids. The computers only do what people program them to do, anyway.
Anyone who argues your first point is not coordinated enough to ride a motorcycle. As for your second point, no...it can't. It will make itself obvious every dirt road you ride. I want neither linked brakes nor ABS.

I'm not a Luddite. I have a specific riding style and I don't like electronic aids. I'm also not a fan of throwing technology at solutions which require judgement. Exercise judgement...and you don't need the aids.

I grew up at the end of a ten mile dirt road. I learned to drive and to ride on gravel. I'm not willing to change how I've ridden for more than twenty years because the EU wants to protect everyone from themselves.

Back to the wonderful Griso. A beautiful, great Guzzi that doesn't have ABS or linked brakes.
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Old 12-16-2013, 12:13 PM   #105
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Must be quite the hard-charger to get an early LeMans into a tank-slapper!

Admittedly, my knowledge of the small block bikes grows weaker the farther back in time one goes. Guess I need to brush up on my V50/V65 info.
Not really. Caused by another Guzzi early tech adoption that was not well executed. Early LeMans & V50 Monza's had cartridge forks, the first I had ever come across. Sadly the cartridges looked like they came from the same factory that made flyscreen doors & were prone to bending & binding. Once that happened the forks would become unpredictable & stiction prone. And slappy on bumpy roads. The gun mod at the time was to fit Marzzochi damper rod forks believe it or not. A friend had a V50 Monza with replacement aftermarket cartridges from Paoli. That setup was brilliant.

As someone with history with old Guzzi's riding a 4-valve/cylinder 1200 Griso for the first time was a revelation. Wish I could afford one!
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