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Old 06-12-2013, 08:11 PM   #76
tonymorr
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Old 06-13-2013, 07:55 AM   #77
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Nice pair!
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Old 06-16-2013, 08:42 PM   #78
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Got a BV 350 yesterday and really love it!!!! I really dig the automatic tranny, very smooth and good power. Can't wait to do some long distance riding.
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Old 06-16-2013, 09:53 PM   #79
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First road-trip



We just took our 2 BV-350's on their first overnighter....691 miles round trip.

Desert, mountain, coast, and some slab.

Averaged (each bike) 72 mpg, fully loaded and one with factory windscreen, one without. An impressive, long-range scooter thats fun to ride and eats the miles easily. The freeway is a no-brainer on this bike, and the larger wheels (I also ride a Vespa with 12" rolling stock) are a huge plus.

My ONLY gripe is the seat, and I'm on my 3rd reconfiguration on mine (my wife is happy with her OEM seat) but anytime you do a 350 + mile day, there's gonna be some discomfort.

That said, they really shot themselves in the foot with this scooter in relation to the seat IMO.
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Old 06-16-2013, 10:41 PM   #80
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Nice gordy; I saw you went to Paso Robles. Quite the overnight trip from Temecula. Sounds like you both enjoyed the ride.
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Old 06-17-2013, 02:11 PM   #81
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The price of a BV350 here IS way out of line, but people pay it. Everything seems to be around $350. $350 freight, $350 setup, $350 doc fee, $350 title and registration, and around $500 in sales tax. The $350 title and first year registration is normal here on a new vehicle around $6000, and we have right at 10% sales tax. (someone who buys a $40,000 vehicle pays $4000 sales tax and around $2500 in title and registration fees for the first year) The $1000 in fees paid to the dealer are a total ripoff, but apparently the market tolerates it.


After looking at the Forza and the Kymco GTi300, I definitely like the BV350 better. In silver. I like the 3 tone brown, black and silver colors. But at around $7500 OTD, it's not cheap. However, I doubt the Forza is much cheaper. MSRP is $100 less, but Honda will add a $310 destination charge to that, then the dealer will add their own ridiculous fees, then there is tax, title, and registration. And if you are not very lucky, you will have a hefty fine to pay when you get stopped by a cop on the way home. That's just the way things work in Phoenix, AZ.
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Old 06-17-2013, 02:34 PM   #82
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Msrp

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
The price of a BV350 here IS way out of line, but people pay it. Everything seems to be around $350. $350 freight, $350 setup, $350 doc fee, $350 title and registration, and around $500 in sales tax. The $350 title and first year registration is normal here on a new vehicle around $6000, and we have right at 10% sales tax. (someone who buys a $40,000 vehicle pays $4000 sales tax and around $2500 in title and registration fees for the first year) The $1000 in fees paid to the dealer are a total ripoff, but apparently the market tolerates it.


After looking at the Forza and the Kymco GTi300, I definitely like the BV350 better. In silver. I like the 3 tone brown, black and silver colors. But at around $7500 OTD, it's not cheap. However, I doubt the Forza is much cheaper. MSRP is $100 less, but Honda will add a $310 destination charge to that, then the dealer will add their own ridiculous fees, then there is tax, title, and registration. And if you are not very lucky, you will have a hefty fine to pay when you get stopped by a cop on the way home. That's just the way things work in Phoenix, AZ.
MSRP is $5699.--. Freight is a legit cost to the dealer....as is some prep time. Everything else you mention is gov't fees....

Calling that collection of fees a "rip-off" demonstrates how little you know (or care) about the dealer's function and part of the process.

I'm not sure I follow your post, but the scooter is priced right, if not a bit underpriced IMO.
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Old 06-17-2013, 02:39 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
The price of a BV350 here IS way out of line, but people pay it. Everything seems to be around $350. $350 freight, $350 setup, $350 doc fee, $350 title and registration, and around $500 in sales tax. The $350 title and first year registration is normal here on a new vehicle around $6000, and we have right at 10% sales tax. (someone who buys a $40,000 vehicle pays $4000 sales tax and around $2500 in title and registration fees for the first year) The $1000 in fees paid to the dealer are a total ripoff, but apparently the market tolerates it.


After looking at the Forza and the Kymco GTi300, I definitely like the BV350 better. In silver. I like the 3 tone brown, black and silver colors. But at around $7500 OTD, it's not cheap. However, I doubt the Forza is much cheaper. MSRP is $100 less, but Honda will add a $310 destination charge to that, then the dealer will add their own ridiculous fees, then there is tax, title, and registration. And if you are not very lucky, you will have a hefty fine to pay when you get stopped by a cop on the way home. That's just the way things work in Phoenix, AZ.
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Old 06-17-2013, 11:36 PM   #84
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When a bike is sold at full MSRP, freight, prep, and doc fees are part of the dealers overhead. They should not cost you an extra $1000. That is just absurd. You are literally paying for the "privilege" of buying the bike. No wonder they are called "stealer dealers" That is nothing but legal theft. Some dealers don't have these charges. Most Kymco dealers for example.

AZ does have ridiculous sales tax and registration fees. Not much you can do about that.

Small scooters like the Honda Met are really bad. MSRP of under $2000. OTD price of over $3000. About a 35% markup.

I doubt there is any business more dishonest than "powersports" dealers. Not car dealers, insurance companies, hospitals, even lawyers.

I plan to buy a new car in about a year. I'm going to buy it in Oregon, which has no sales tax. I have relatives there. The car will be bought in their name, and they will then "sell" it to me when the paperwork comes through. I will buy it as a used car, and register it in AZ, where private sales have no sales tax. It's all perfectly legal, and will save me over $2000. It will be done at a time when I am going up there anyway.


I'm not rich, and cannot afford to just throw money away. And I just plain don't like being scammed.
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2002 Vulcan 750, 2013 Royal Enfield B5
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Old 06-18-2013, 05:58 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
When a bike is sold at full MSRP, freight, prep, and doc fees are part of the dealers overhead. They should not cost you an extra $1000. That is just absurd. You are literally paying for the "privilege" of buying the bike. No wonder they are called "stealer dealers" That is nothing but legal theft. Some dealers don't have these charges. Most Kymco dealers for example.

........................

I doubt there is any business more dishonest than "powersports" dealers. Not car dealers, insurance companies, hospitals, even lawyers.

I'm not rich, and cannot afford to just throw money away. And I just plain don't like being scammed.
I used to sell bikes/ATVs/jet skiis at a powersports dealer. Unless things have changed in the last few years, Jerry is right about dealer fees being mostly pure additional dealer markup.

The dealer I worked at charged a "Freight and Prep" fee + an $18 title fee. The title fee went to the state. The F&P fee was only paid by buyers who didn't know how to negotiate. Most bikes where sold for under MSRP + tax & title. The F&P fee gave us some room to negotiate. However, business was bad back then, there was a lot of surplus inventory and competiton was tough. When bikes are selling well, dealers are less willing to negotiate and some dealers more willing than others.

As for dealers being dishonest, some are and some aren't but most of them are not making as much money as you would think. The dealer I worked for was honest as far as I could tell, but then they are no longer in business.

I have bought a number of new bikes over the years but have never paid more than MSRP + Tax. In most cases I paid far less. My best deal was a 1983 Yamaha Vision. MSRP was $3,099. I paid $1800 OTD It was a one year old left over model.

Someone who insists on buying a hot new model is likely to pay all those fees. I did that one time. I bought a 1999 SV650 which sold out very quickly. My local dealer managed to get one from out of state for me after selling all his by march. And this was in Maine. He charged me MSRP + Tax. No Fees. He was an honest dealer and I had been a good customer so he didn't rip me off.

I got both of my scooters below MSRP but they were both leftover models. I didn't have to negotiate at either dealer. They both offered really good deals and I took them.
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Old 06-18-2013, 07:14 AM   #86
tonymorr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
I doubt there is any business more dishonest than "powersports" dealers. Not car dealers, insurance companies, hospitals, even lawyers.
Man, you people named Jerry really do like putting people into categories.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
I plan to buy a new car in about a year. I'm going to buy it in Oregon, which has no sales tax. I have relatives there. The car will be bought in their name, and they will then "sell" it to me when the paperwork comes through. I will buy it as a used car, and register it in AZ, where private sales have no sales tax. It's all perfectly legal, and will save me over $2000. It will be done at a time when I am going up there anyway.
Sounds dishonest. Like a scam.
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Old 06-18-2013, 07:47 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
When a bike is sold at full MSRP, freight, prep, and doc fees are part of the dealers overhead. They should not cost you an extra $1000. That is just absurd. You are literally paying for the "privilege" of buying the bike. No wonder they are called "stealer dealers" That is nothing but legal theft. Some dealers don't have these charges. Most Kymco dealers for example.

AZ does have ridiculous sales tax and registration fees. Not much you can do about that.

Small scooters like the Honda Met are really bad. MSRP of under $2000. OTD price of over $3000. About a 35% markup.

I doubt there is any business more dishonest than "powersports" dealers. Not car dealers, insurance companies, hospitals, even lawyers.

I plan to buy a new car in about a year. I'm going to buy it in Oregon, which has no sales tax. I have relatives there. The car will be bought in their name, and they will then "sell" it to me when the paperwork comes through. I will buy it as a used car, and register it in AZ, where private sales have no sales tax. It's all perfectly legal, and will save me over $2000. It will be done at a time when I am going up there anyway.


I'm not rich, and cannot afford to just throw money away. And I just plain don't like being scammed.
Who told you those fees are part of a "dealers overhead"?

Because MY experience at a dealership as recently as last year, proves otherwise.

Customer's like you, who dont value the local dealer, it's employees, or the taxes it provides the community its located in were the one's we hoped WOULD buy elsewhere. They aren't model customers and a are detriment to OUR economic well-being.

Asking a dealer to pay 2 or 3 hundred dollars freight, and a technician's wages to set up say,a $2000 dollar Honda Metropolitan with a profit margin of maybe 200 dollars total (the manufacturers dont give these to the dealers you know) doesnt add up.

I dont know WHAT you did for a living, but Im pretty certain the rest of the world could have some gross misconceptions about THAT occupation same as you have about powersports dealers.

And, I'm sorry if you feel you have to skirt the law by having a relative "flip" a vehicle for you, so you can short YOUR state of residence on the sales tax...it might be legal but it's also basically part of whats wrong with this country these days...(I think youre leaving an ingredient like a certain required amount of time owned by the original purchaser or certain miles on the meter but I'm no expert either). Nobody likes paying taxes, but it's part of the deal in our society.

I was raised that if you can't afford something, and all that something entails....dont buy it.

By the way, don't think YOUR state of residence doesn't have some taxation mechanism in place for others like you looking for a free ride. As a former resident of neighboring Washington state for many years, the whole "buy in Oregon to screw your own state on taxes" thing isn't as easy or cut and dried as you wishfully think. Yeah, the government actually knows some people try this and have specific rules and regulations in place to assist in getting their share.
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Old 06-18-2013, 09:18 AM   #88
tonymorr
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Old 06-18-2013, 10:31 AM   #89
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First of all I have no use for a dealer whatsoever, other than as a place to buy the bike. I do my own work on it, and get my parts and accessories online. The few times I have been to a dealer for parts I've been harassed buy salespeople. They always put the parts counter way in the back, probably so you will have to walk through the whole showroom full of salespeople to get to it. Consumers really do need to better educate themselves more to avoid being scammed.

And yes, those fees are part of a dealers overhead. If you go to an appliance store and buy a washer and dryer or a refrigerator, they don't charge you freight and prep fee on it, and they don't charge you for ringing up the sale. They price it up front, with a big tag on it, at a price that allows them to make money on it.

Deals are out there. I got my one year old but brand new Zuma 125, with a $3499 MSRP for under $3100 OTD. They probably didn't make much money on it, but they avoided losing money by letting it continue to take up much needed room in their warehouse, while it continued to depreciate. I ordered my windshield, rack, and top box online, for quite a bit less than the local dealer wanted.

When dealers quit ripping people off, then they might earn people's support. But their new vehicle prices (OTD), parts, and accessories need to be competitive.


Yes, Washington does sometimes check people going back across the bridge for stuff bought in Oregon, but most of them get away with it. And if I bought a vehicle in Oregon, in my name, I would indeed have to pay sales tax on it when I registered it in my AZ. But that only applies to things bought new. You do not pay any tax on a "used" vehicle bought anywhere. And a used vehicle is one which has been previously titled and owned by someone else. Believe me, with $2000 at stake, I have already done my legal research on this, including talking to a lawyer. And I don't see anyway you can possibly "scam" the govt. They have already taken hundreds of thousands of $$$ from me without my permission.

Back during the Harley boom, when dealers were charging way more than MSRP for new bikes, Harley-Davidson was getting a bad reputation because of it. So they threatened to pull the franchise of any dealers doing it. The dealers quickly found a way around that. They titled every new bike they got, and sold them all as used. MSRP does not apply to a used vehicle. And they got away with it.


Anyway this is getting way off track, so I'm dropping it. But I do advise potential buyers to educate themselves before spending any money on a vehicle, new or used. There is tons of information available out there on cars and trucks. Any potential buyer who has done their homework likely knows more than the salesperson. For a long time, "powersports" dealers have had a free ride. But I suspect that is about over, as information about the business is beginning to get out for those willing to look for it, and hopefully will be far more readily available in the future. Remember, it is the dealers job to make as much profit as possible, while it is the consumers job to get the best deal possible. So they start out as adversaries to begin with.


BTW, I really do like the BV350. I like it better than the Forza. But because of ripoff dealers, if I get a 300cc class scooter, it will likely be a Kymco, because you are a lot more likely to get a fair deal from them.
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2002 Vulcan 750, 2013 Royal Enfield B5
2001 XT225, 2009 Genuine Stella
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Old 06-18-2013, 10:31 AM   #90
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We bought our Honda PCX 150 scooters in Arizona. After checking with multiple dealers, I was convinced that all the "add-on" fees (not sales tax, title and registration) was something I was going to have to pay. The multi-brand dealers were the worst... not mentioning any names, but the initials are: Ride Now.

Jerry suggested I check with Western Honda in Scottsdale. Their price for a pair of these scooters came out to be just under MSRP, out-the-door. Including our state sales tax (which is less than Arizona's), registration, and title. That price was significantly less than the next best offer.

Jerry knows the local motorcycle/scooter dealer scene there. I didn't deal with the Phoenix Piaggio dealer, because we knew the PCX was what we were after, but I have no doubt he is right about the pricing.

I have never paid above MSRP for a motorcycle, and I've bought a bunch of 'em over the years. The "R" in MSRP stands for retail. That's after what it costs to get it to the dealer and set it up. Paying above retail is like going to the car dealers and seeing "Additional Dealer Mark-up" on a price sheet for a hot-selling model. They are required to show the price on a new car sticker. I once laughed at a car salesman when I saw that on the additional sticker they added to the factory price sticker (which you don't see on motorcycles)... he said, "Most people don't question it," and shrugged his shoulders.

If most people don't question the BS mark-up on new scooters, the dealers will hang together and keep trying to extract that from buyers. In some industries, that would be considered "price fixing." (A group of sellers agreeing to artificially inflate prices) Freight and set-up are part of the RETAIL price structure... not the after-retail price. I'm all for dealers making a fair profit on their products - we need them to stay in business. Charging above retail leaves "fair" behind.

Think I'm off base? Tell your dealer you don't want them to "set-up" your new bike... you'll do it yourself to save that fee. Then laugh at them when they say, "We HAVE to do the set-up!"

"Of course you do - it's part of the retail price, not above and beyond the retail price."

There are some products that have a MAP price: Minimum Advertised Price, which is well below MSRP. Manufacturers don't want someone advertising a price below that MAP because it will hurt other dealer sales. They can sell below MAP price, they just can't advertise that.

And, obviously, they can sell above MSRP, if they can get people who will pay that. Doesn't mean it's fair or right... but if all (or most) of 'em tell you you have to pay that, they've got you.

If you went to the grocery store and they charged you 30% MORE than the manufacturer stamped price on those potato chips because of "freight and shelf space fee", would you say, "OK, that's fair." Yeah, me neither.

People need to walk when dealers pull that crap. When enough people are walking, you will see those fees go away.

We got our scooters AND at a fair price, thanks to Jerry's dealer suggestion. No ridiculous negotiating, no stupid back and forth. Too bad all dealers can't be fair like that.

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