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Old 04-19-2013, 03:31 AM   #1
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Home build rugged hack on an 11GS

It's been done for a while now, and has a little over 3000 miles on it now, but I keep dipping in to this section for tips on our next build so I reckon it's only fair to put something back......

This is the tale of a shed built rugged hack on an 1100GS...picture heavy and not for the purists or those who like to work out every little detail and angle on a CAD system before getting out the angle grinder

As background....we run a workshop that specialises in restoring old Landrovers, but both Gert and I have been into bikes for many many years....he's had Harleys forever and for the last 8 years has been on GSs, and I've had GSs forever and had a company runnning off road trips in North Africa/Sahara etc, so have a fair bit of off-roading behind me.

EDIT....I'm going to quote some posts from the original thread on UKGSer, or some of the replies that may explain some of the things we did won't make sense
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:32 AM   #2
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Ok, purists, look away.......

This is going to get fugly, so if you haven't realised that you ride an ugly tractor, you may not want to watch this thread :)


Last week we picked up a wrecked old tub frame complete with suspension and a wheel/mudguard



We looked at putting it on my bike for a few mins



But decided it would be better to put it on my old Kalahari which now belongs to Gert.



So last night when we'd closed the workshop, we got stuck in.....it's fun playing with angle grinders and stuff










This could get messy
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:36 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyBoxer View Post
Hedingham, Squire and EML will be quaking with fear, now the masterbuilders have entered the frame:eek

Good luck




This one's only supposed to be a load carrier, so there won't be aby shiny covering skin or anything on it......

Ellefant Treffen January



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Old 04-19-2013, 03:40 AM   #4
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Next scheduled work night is Thursday.
Poor old Gert had to go to hospital today with a flared up eye.......
I'm sure an evening welding and the eye are pure coincidence :blast

Tight schedule and a budget of , er, zero..... place your bets

A slow week on the project this week.....more standing around scratching heads and wondering how to proceed than actual spannering :blast


Anyway....frame of chair base tidied and some bits cut off.....




Another mounting point done.....straight through the centre stand pivot hole




And we lined it up to get a feel for how big it's going to be, and by how much we need to widen it up.







We're going to widen it by at least 4-5 inches.......and we've found some inspiration for the top mount points too.....more to follow :)
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:41 AM   #5
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Just behind the telelever pivot, there's a crash frame<>engine mount point.

Sadly, you can't use that on its own because the bar would foul the telelever, so we're going up from that about 2 inches, then a bar from the place where the beak subframe mounts onto the main frame member to strengthen it, and to allow clearance for the telelever movement

Position 2 will be a proper bodge up.......two pucks of steel mounted onto the frame above the rear footrest hanger and the diagonal below it, with a 10mm bar welded across the two faces of the pucks.....the pucks will be about 2.5 inches square and very solidly bolted on.

It'll work
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:42 AM   #6
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Ok....here we go again

1) established the width of the beasty and put in some gate pivot hinges for frame mount points and adjusters (every mount bar will have adjustment so we can tweak and tune the distances)



Front corner with detail of gate hinge onto a 90 degree flange on the angle iron...there's a good 6 inches of thread up the pipe so we have 3-4 inches of adjustment capability





Rear mounting on subframe



It became quite apparent that, (as we had thought actually) the sub frame is definitely going to need bracing to a solid mount on the other side of the engine block to make it rigid and strong enough....she here's the mount point we're using and a 10mm plate cut and bolted into place, ready for a cross-member to be welded on going across to the iron angle on the other side 2



Now, some cross bracing on the frame

If you recognise the tube going across, it means you know your land rovers.....NRC1824, half of a steering Drag Link Tube from RR classic





Now for the top mounting points.....always the hardest places to get solid mounting points to. :blast

We've stood there scratching our heads for days over the issue.
Contrary to how it might appear, we have actually done a LOT of research and reading up on this, but nearly all the examples of home made chairs being fitted to 11xxs have been from abroad, which obviously means they are right handed chairs, whilst ours has to be a lefty.

There's a nice guy who goes by the name of Mr Cob on Advrider so we raided his smugmug portfolio on his home made build HERE for some inspiration.... This is what we were going to do initially, but for several reasons we adapted it a little











So instead, we did this:



Jez, you can poke your criticisms of the welding where the sun doesn't shine 2





I know from experience that there is a weak point on the top frame there though:



That part of the frame snapped off cleanly through on BOTH sides, after several years of admittedly overloaded off-roading in Morocco, so After a temporary bodge to get us out of the desert that involved turning Vern's pannier rails around, I ended up with a fillet in my own frame there.








So my gut feeling though is that I need to weld in another fillet inbetween the top frame rail and the one that goes down diagonally ..like this:



With an 8 or ten mill plate in there, the fekker's not going to break :rob

That's it for this week....we need 3 or maybe four more of the gate post hinges and some rose joints, then we can sort out the front top mounting point which we already have a plan for, then start on the basket and changing the wheel and suspension for something a little better......On the hunt for a GS wheel now, complete with hub, disc and caliper

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Old 04-19-2013, 03:45 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VAL. H. View Post
Hey Bill,

It's great to see a hack build underway, and to see Paul's finally seen the light and got a sidecar section together However I don't want to spoil your fun, But...... :rob


The sidecar chassis you have there is a Velorex and is from the 350/250 Jawa, MZ or CZ's. As you will know these are very light bikes and they where made in a country that doesn't have too much concern for quality of materials.

The big problem, (bearing in mind the weight of the 1100 and consequently the extra forces you'll be putting through it) is that the metal tubing is not thick enough or good enough quality for the job your asking it to do.

If you really want to stick with the present chassis 'even though it's got to be easier to make one from scratch' I'd suggest you add lots of extra strength (gussets etc). Especially to the joints, plus beefing up the tubing.

I know you've mentioned looking for another wheel, but the axle will need to be upgraded too. It has a very small 15mm axle fitted which won't be strong enough (and is prone to braking) to hold the weight of the 1100. On the plus side the new version of said chair has a 20mm axle. so you might be able to get a replacement. F2 sells them.

You mentioned Mr Cob earlier. So you know of the Hacks section on the Adventure site. Do a search in there for builds for the 1100s there's quite a few and with plenty of pictures showing how they did the mountings. That place is definitely your friend where this is concerned.

As it happens I have the same chassis and chair (though the axle at least has been modified and the wheel matched to the bike) on my R80. It works quite well on the old girl, but it's bloody light, to the point of being scary. Without 20Kg of ballast it's virtually unridable solo. The Airheads are about the heaviest bike you can fit these to 'and get away with it' and then you wouldn't want to push it too much. Right hand bends put an enormous amount of weight and force into that pathetically under designed chassis and axle.

Sorry to blow holes in your pie, but thought you should know before you get too much further.


Val.
Thanks Val, all useful stuff 2

We are going to be reinforcing it a LOT, and we are looking for a new wheel/axle assembly...

This is primarily a load carrier for the Elefant etc, so there won't be a person on board......we are planning on putting a 2nd battery with a split charge system on board though, and the ubiquitous jerry cans as well, so as long as we strengthen the bars, that will provide a fair bit of outboard weight as well 2

This is Mk1, and I suspect it won't be too long before the Mk2 is built :blast

By the way, there is already some extra strong tubing going in....3-4mm thick walled steel stuff, and we have a pile of steel standing by 2

B


Actually, here's a bit more of the plan for consideration.....

The frame from the Velorex (which we also have the tub from) is literally only going to be a subframe really......on top, there's going to be a tubular cage that the top mountings are going to fit to (probably bolted, but maybe welded, or half and half so there's a modular platform sort of arrangement going on and we can change the tub)

The tubular 'basket' is probably going to have (we estimate) at least twice the strength of the Velorex frame, and may well end up being part of the mounting system for the indespension/swing arm type setup that will bear the axle and shock etc.....it will certainly be bolstering the linkages though, in some way.

Although there is a design concept behind the whole thing, we are (as you can tell) making a lot of it up as we go along.

We spend as much, if not more time scratching our heads, offering up bits of rod and sticking lengths of string across things to see how it 'feels' strengthwise (imagining the string is x, y or z grade tubing) and generally brainstorming before we commit to picking up a power tool 2
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:47 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ijustwanttoseethephotos View Post
I'm now beginning to see the reason for Type Approval laws......


Before this thing leaves the shed, believe me, it will be destructo-tested.

Two or three of us jumping up and down on the frames, putting full weight over on one side then the other, watching for bending or flexing where we don't want it etc etc.

It will be ridden carefully at first, then hard, around the farm tracks on the private land we're on and through the woods that are on the land, then again, inspected and load tested.

It may look like a cowboy job (fekk, it IS a cowboy job) but bearing in mind that if it goes wrong, we are very aware that it will be OUR lives at risk first, we are taking it a lot more seriously than a casual, 'for-fun' write up here may imply

Lighting won't be a problem and we will be brake-testing, making sure that nothing is sharp, pointy, wobbly, loose or otherwise unfit for use.

Type approval is fine, but unless somebody does the first build and testing, nothing could be 'type approved'.......

Don't worry


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern View Post
You want to keep an eye on the mounting point where the centre stand used to be.That isn't a very strong part of the casting on the engine,and I've seen plenty of cracked ones,including the Donkey:( so the chance of failure on that bit must be huge with half of Essex welded to it.

That's my only imput so far,apart from it's absolutley hideous,built completley wrong by a feckin monkey,and welded by a blindfolded blind man in the dark,and certainly doomed to failure causing one or more deaths in the surrounding area.GOOD EFFORT,CARRY ONjug:
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:48 AM   #9
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Just going back through this to make sure I've taken everything on board 2

Thanks Vern.....that 'mounting point' isn't actually going to be structural- It was more there initially just for lining stuff up and setting up the chair frame on the bench- the bit of rod poked through into it in one of the early pics was just that, an alignment tool.

That point sits in a triangle of space that is probably going to be needed for paddling the thing backwards or holding it on inclines, so I doubt there will be anything at all there in the finished version jug:




We ordered 6 welding bends in 38mm thick wall tubing today...should get them tomorrow, then we can get on with thinking about considering how to go about planning how to build the cage that will go on top (and strengthen) the Velorex frame.

I've been scouring all the Ebay ads and bike wreckers for a single sided swing arm assembly from something that had a bit of power....I've done a 3d CAD drawing of a single sided swingarm in a frame cage, but also a double sided jobby (plenty around for around the 50 quid mark) that looks seriously do-able.

The original axle and wheel have been pretty much mentally written off now, and we've been through every type and grade of Indespension unit online to see if we like those......A nice aluminium double or single sided swing arm with a really solid shock mount bracket feels like the way to go....ideally, one with a fitted disc or maybe even disc, caliper and wheel :eek: 2



Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFarkoff
Why not half a rear axle off a FWD car one with torsion bar suspension??

ANd it's a complete waste of time putting a disc out that side!
Oddly enough, we did have our heads up the front wing of a 2CV today

Erm.....ok, edoomakate me, why a waste having a disc that side?

Ok, I completely understand that it would need a regulator to de-power it, or a tiny disc/one pot caliper or whatever, but a valve to regulate the pressure is something we have off the shelf, yet a lower-drag drummed wheel or something would be a substantial cost for the size we'd need to get, and certainly a specific order or a very lucky Ebay win


Quote:
Originally Posted by STUBBS
is this the winter project or just a warm up
One of........We have a 90 we are going to turn into something fast and rorty and rugged, think wildcat but not on a tubular chassis.
Plus a series 3 hardtop rebuild, a series 1 SWB already stripped to the chassis for a nuts up resto, an Iraq/Merkin Humvee that's now fired up and just needs some details finishing, and a few odd things to play with inbetween (like work)
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:51 AM   #10
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It's been a busy week.....

First top mount point put on and welded up.....still needs a fillet inbetweeen the two frame members I think, but it's proper tractor engineering

(Left handed threaded bolts that size are stupid money, so atthe moment, there's just the right handed one which means that you have to disconnect it from the bracket and screw it in or out to get any adjustment)





That tube/bar coming down is made from a jack handle
(I'm only pointing that out because I know how much it annoys the 'OOoh you shouldn't do it like that!" brigade



New frame that goes on top of the original base frame, and has been welded on to support and strengthen the original.

Still looking for some sort of swing arm, and have been eying up a stub axle from a fiesta recently......the weeny little axle in this wheel, as Val pointed out, just isn't up to the job.

The other option is an indespension unit, but try getting just ONE of those

We also put a bid in on Ebay last week on a single sided swing arm (one triumph, the other I can't remember) that would do the job.....the frame we put on last week is easily modified though



And a bit of strengthening on the existing suspension unit area, in case we end up just trying a thicker axle.....



The front end......room for a couple of 5 litre jerries, a car battery run on a split charge system so we can run LED floodlights (a bit of maths showed us that we can run one for well over 24 hours on a car battery, so that's fine for putting up tents in the dark etc etc 2)



Aluminium skin to go over it later, after it's all been taken off, stripped and painted
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Old 04-19-2013, 04:09 AM   #11
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Well things took an interesting turn today

I bought one of these, without the sock but with everything else:



It's upside down, so if we mount it the 'right way up', the wheel will be inboard of the swingarm, which is obviously no good for tyre changing, but looking at the other pic on the sale, there is a good chance we can use the various mount points to attach the end of a shock to.

Delivered, 43 off Ebay :JB

Hopefully it'll arrive fast, as there are things that depend on having the swingarm mounted and the positioning of the shock mounts in place before we move on......the polan will probably include having as much flexibility to mount the shock as possible, so we can adjust angles and travel 2

Val, if you're still reading this, we did follow up your suggestion about talking to F2 about a spindle upgrade and were a bit gobsmacked to be told the 'kit' is the only way they will supply now, and it includes the shock, back plate, hub and basically everything involved with the wheel and suspension.....that's a bit on the heavy side of expense for this project :blast

We also looked in depth at 2CV suspension units and Ford Fiesta kit....the fiesta kit is a definite plan 'd' fallback position if we can't make this single sided swinger fit.




EDIT....anyone got a spare rear wheel for a VFR 400 laying around wanting a purpose in life?
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Old 04-19-2013, 04:11 AM   #12
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Today is going to be a GOOD day

Things move fast though, and plans change.......it looks like it will be at least a week before the VFR arm gets here, so today we got a freebie suspension unit, hub, axle and wheel from a Ford Fiesta......we've looked in detail at several that have been fitted to rigs attached to various bikes, the biggest being a Goldwing, so we KNOW it will be plenty strong enough

Watch this space

I didn't book any work in, so we can spend the whole day on the build

So far....some cleaning off and hacking about...



The last remaining attachment point to the bike, the front top one, is in....ignore the silly pin through it in this pic....




And best of all....the fiesta stub and suspension is ON!!! :JB



Ain't no way that fucker's coming off :rob

More to come.......

Today is going to be a GOOD day
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Old 04-19-2013, 04:13 AM   #13
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Heading rapidly towards the top of the list is the cross-body subrame bracing plate......we're waiting on a sheet of 10mm steel to be delivered so we can cut that out and start fitting it......with that on, the rig can come down off the ramp :JB

Target for the day is to ride it around the yard :eek:

Here's a better view of the front top mounting point and how we did it





And the Fiesta special





It'd ferking cold in here today, but we don't care :bounce1





Just off to get some M16 x100 bolts and the aluminium sheeting so I can start cutting up the skin panels.....loose plan at the moment is pop rivetting the skin on with a good bead of RTV between it and the frame.

Lots of sanding and tidying to do, then red oxide, satin black top coat, skinning, then wiring and........ooooooh fuck, it's going to be a long day :eek
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Old 04-19-2013, 04:21 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFarkoff
What about that Longitudinal brace under the exhaust area don't forget that one
That's the bit I meant, the sheet of steel we're waiting for is for there

It FEELS solid now, IYKWIM.......that 15mm axle on the old suspension unit was 'feeling' like the weak point as more and more strength has been poured into the rest of the framework.

We should know very soon.....there are some good farm tracks here and the pair of us bouncing around on those on this thing should show us a lot

Now, where did I put my serious armoured kit

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Old 04-19-2013, 04:22 AM   #15
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Right, let's get the fekker outside :)




And here she is jug:









Lots of room.....tomorrow a railing is going around the floor platform, then after it's come off the bike and the dodgy welds, angled cuts and little details have been dealt with, we can have a go on it, see if we need to change the geometry about a bit and then get to painting (Desert storm II Sand coloured, with paint left over from the Humvee rebuild) and wiring......split charge battery system, LEDs, etc etc
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