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Old 05-02-2013, 06:43 AM   #46
UtahDirt
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Originally Posted by E.O.T.D. View Post
Yes he killed her. Yes it was an accident, not a murder. He didn't wake up and decide to kill a motorcyclist.

These things happen. I wish like hell they didn't. It could happen to me or you. He WILL remember it. If you say he'll go right back to his old ways, because that's what the studies show...
Saying he MIGHT have been able to prevent it doesn't change a damn thing about the past. IT'S CALLED AN ACCIDENT BECAUSE IT WAS ACCIDENT. As in not intentional.
Two, or more, people come together in a chance meeting. That is the accident. The days, months, years of decisions and learning leading to this accidental meeting shapes the outcome. To me, it's called an accident because of the chance encounter in time, few seconds either way no meeting. The actions of the participants are not accidental.
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Old 05-02-2013, 06:50 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by mrpete64 View Post
If your neighbor saw you "kicking your dog" you would get a longer sentence. Justice, in America, all comes down to this: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
It is confusing, and the application seems to be delivered by madmen.
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Old 05-02-2013, 07:49 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by cliffy109 View Post
So how do we make the consequences of inattentive driving severed enough to make people change their behavior?
You don't.
Inattentive driving is not a deliberate act in defiance of rules, it's not a decision to do or fail to do something despite the possible consequences, so changing the likely consequences, no matter how severe, won't change the behaviour.

Do people drive on the correct side of the road and give way to motorcyclists because of the fines for not doing so? No.

Do people obey speed limits and stop at stop signs before deciding whether there is a motorcycle they need to give way to because of the potential fines? Yes.

Does a low penalty with a high probability of being caught work better than a high penalty with low probability of being caught? Every time!

Fining lots of people for not stopping completely at stop signs will achieve far more than locking the few drivers who are involved in crashes away for years.
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:30 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by eepeqez View Post
You don't.
Inattentive driving is not a deliberate act in defiance of rules, it's not a decision to do or fail to do something despite the possible consequences, so changing the likely consequences, no matter how severe, won't change the behaviour.
Would your driving habits change if you knew there was a 10% chance that the airbags in your car contained a sword that would pierce your heart if it ever deployed? Would you be more attentive? Would you make a deliberate effort to be more aware of your following distance and take measures to minimize distractions?

Of course this is an extreme example but it illustrates that inattentive driving is a deliberate act brought on by the lack of negative consequences. There is very little incentive for most people to pay attention when driving and therefore, most people don't view a fatal collision as a deliberate act but just an accident.

I can't say how things are in Australia but here in the US, there is a serious mindset problem in general and most of the time, it doesn't bother me. When a person with a "condition white" mindset gets behind the wheel of a 2 ton hunk of steel, their mindset becomes my problem.
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:52 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Snarky View Post
That 20 year old 'scumbag' killed a person he didn't intend to kill, he is going to have to live with that for the rest of his life. He's going to need a lot more weed. He's probably not some hardened gangbanger devoid of human compassion, it has probably fucked him up pretty badly.
Not so long ago it was a topic here about a newspaper article, which covered sufferings of a woman who killed a motorcyclist. She was very distraught because her little doggie ran away during the accident.

I don't think that jailing the driver would accomplish much good, but prolonged license revocation followed by an extensive driver school and an alimony to the victim's family should be in order.
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:27 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by genka View Post
Not so long ago it was a topic here about a newspaper article, which covered sufferings of a woman who killed a motorcyclist. She was very distraught because her little doggie ran away during the accident.

I don't think that jailing the driver would accomplish much good, but prolonged license revocation followed by an extensive driver school and an alimony to the victim's family should be in order.
I'd make the clown pay college tuition and lodging for the deceased's children.
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Old 05-02-2013, 05:45 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by cliffy109 View Post
Would your driving habits change if you knew there was a 10% chance that the airbags in your car contained a sword that would pierce your heart if it ever deployed? Would you be more attentive? Would you make a deliberate effort to be more aware of your following distance and take measures to minimize distractions?
When I ride my motorbike, I have a risk of death by crash 37 times that of a car driver. I ride and drive quite conservatively, particularly with respect to following distances.

But there is ample evidence in this forum that for many many people, even a 37 times higher risk of death is not enough to stop them riding a bike in ways that the rest of us can see are plainly more dangerous.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffy109 View Post
Of course this is an extreme example but it illustrates that inattentive driving is a deliberate act brought on by the lack of negative consequences. There is very little incentive for most people to pay attention when driving and therefore, most people don't view a fatal collision as a deliberate act but just an accident.
If the very small risk of killing someone is not enough to change someone's behaviour then the same very small risk of killing someone AND being locked away for a decade or two is not going to change it either.
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:30 PM   #53
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Inattentive driving absolutely is deliberate. The driver chooses to engage in distracting behavior even tho(as many surveys have shown) they know there is a greater risk by looking at texts or talking on the phone, or eating, fiddling with the radio, looking for change in the cushions, etc. It is fortunate, that there are enough attentive drivers to avoid the inattentive ones, most of the time.
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:14 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by John Bentall View Post
I do not understand why human life is so cheap in law when we are talking about vehicle deaths. Can someone explain?
It has to do with motion blindness, they look but don't see because they don't know the techniques needed to dispel the effect and it isn't taught through normal driver education. That's why the law is so lenient on them. My dad is a retired Lieutenant State Trooper and I can't tell you the earful I got when I picked up my first bike.
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:02 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
It has to do with motion blindness, they look but don't see because they don't know the techniques needed to dispel the effect and it isn't taught through normal driver education. That's why the law is so lenient on them. My dad is a retired Lieutenant State Trooper and I can't tell you the earful I got when I picked up my first bike.
I didn't quote all of your posts, as there are too many, only the last.

I have rarely been as disturbed and terrified by a challenge to my assumptions as you have presented here. Thanks for taking an unpopular stance and explaining it well.
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Old 05-03-2013, 05:18 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by colodak View Post
there is hope that it could be upped again to vehicular manslaughter, but that is unlikely
It should be a condition of any deal made with the charges that he pay restitution to the family of the deceased. Miss a payment? Go to prison.

Better to let the scumbag walk out in the world, but squeeze his wallet early and often.
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:38 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by El Pescador View Post
I didn't quote all of your posts, as there are too many, only the last.

I have rarely been as disturbed and terrified by a challenge to my assumptions as you have presented here. Thanks for taking an unpopular stance and explaining it well.
I think the guys saying it isn't possible need to read face plant a little more. There are lots of instances where the offending driver was looking straight at the rider for several seconds and then drives right into their path anyway.
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:45 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
I think the guys saying it isn't possible need to read face plant a little more. There are lots of instances where the offending driver was looking straight at the rider for several seconds and then drives right into their path anyway.
I have, on many occasions, had a driver look right at me and then pull out anyway. While a couple of times I believe it was someone that decided I would back off(They started to go, stopped, then went anyway. I got the feeling that they figured I would stop or slow for them), most of the time they just did not see me, untl it was to late for anyone but me to do something about it. They do usually see you at the last second, which fits in with the SMIDSY explanation.

I have noticed, after reading more on technique, accidents, and riding consistently, that I tend to bob my head back and forth( on the bike adn in the car) whenever I am at an intersection. It really helps to improve your read of where everyone is and what they are doing.
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Old 05-05-2013, 07:32 AM   #59
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vision

Discovered in another thread and pertaining directly to the motion blindness post also:

http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-p...each-cyclists/

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuelish View Post
I have, on many occasions, had a driver look right at me and then pull out anyway. While a couple of times I believe it was someone that decided I would back off(They started to go, stopped, then went anyway. I got the feeling that they figured I would stop or slow for them), most of the time they just did not see me, untl it was to late for anyone but me to do something about it. They do usually see you at the last second, which fits in with the SMIDSY explanation.

I have noticed, after reading more on technique, accidents, and riding consistently, that I tend to bob my head back and forth( on the bike adn in the car) whenever I am at an intersection. It really helps to improve your read of where everyone is and what they are doing.
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Old 05-08-2013, 10:22 PM   #60
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First, sincere condolonces to the original poster. IMO, the 2nd tragedy is indeed the slap on the wrist for the scumbag killing someone. That pretty much tells you the value our courts currently place on the life of motorcyclists.

I disagree with those who think that a severe penalty for HUA (that would be head up a$$) driving resulting in death or injury would not have a positive affect. I know some posters here are not from the USA, but a couple decades ago a couple folks got dam mad about the proliferation of drunk drivers, the carnage they create, and the same slap on the wrist punishment as we see now for motorcycle deaths. No one in a position of power (politicians, police, judges) took drunk driving "accidents" and the all too common resulting deaths seriously. Pretty much like our situation now...

Those folks started MADD, aka Mothers Against Drunk Drivers. They have had a hugely successful result in getting most drivers to not get behind the wheel drunk. It took several years, but it did not take too many high profile "drunk driving with resulting death" convictions with hard time jail sentences to get folks to start changing their driving attitudes. Unfortunately, they are not 100% successful, as there are still far too many stupid people around who seem unable to learn from the mistakes of others. Just as we have geniuses among us, so do we have folks with room temperature IQ's; that will never change...

So IMO, we have pretty good proof that fear of penalty can cause attitude change.

As a few other posters indicated, the word "accident" should not be allowed to be played as a "I was too stupid to know any better, so I am not responsible" card. An accident is indeed a chance meeting of two people, or a tree hit by lightning and falling on your car, or the space shuttle toilet landing on a girl standing on a street corner... Pulling out in front of traffic causing a collision is a willful act. That person chose that action; no one else made him do it. And 99% of the driving population would not have done it. Actions have consequences, and actions without thought to the ramifications can be deadly. Those consequences should also be severe enough to serve as a caution to others. MADD has proven this concept.

Now all we have to do is make folks as sympathetic to motorcyclist deaths as they are to a van full of high school kids rear ended and engulfed in flames by a drunk driver... and that's gonna be a hard sell.
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