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Old 05-07-2013, 07:39 PM   #76
leakypetcock
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Originally Posted by M3-SRT8 View Post
Running higher octane gas than what the owner's manual is just a waste of money, and causes deposits to form in the engine.

An engine rated for 87 octane will make LESS power on higher octane gas.

100% correct!
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Old 05-07-2013, 07:41 PM   #77
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Ethanol also makes you run leaner than non-ethanol.

Really?
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Old 05-09-2013, 06:09 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by M3-SRT8 View Post
An engine rated for 87 octane will make LESS power on higher octane gas.
to have it and not need it, wont hurt. OTOH, to need it and not have it, may hurt the engine.
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:42 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by hexnut View Post
87 and 93 have the same energy or BTUs.
Nope. No they don't.

87 Octane Gas has a HIGHER BTU rating.

Higher Octane comes at a cost. That cost is reduced BTUs.
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:52 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by BikeMan View Post
to have it and not need it, wont hurt. OTOH, to need it and not have it, may hurt the engine.
Only if the 87 Octane you are buying is piss.

And, even if you are, modern manufacturers typically employ a safety margin when posting octane requirements. When they say it's recommended to run 87 octane, it will typically run safely on a point or two less.

If you buy your 87 octane gas (or, ANY gas) from a reputable dealer, and that's what the bike requires, you have nothing to worry about. Curious as to whether your gas station is selling substandard gas? Ask for the Inspection Reports from the State. In Massachusetts they are posted on the pump.

Plus, you'll be saving $$$, getting better gas mileage, making more Torque & HP, and leaving less deposits in your engine.

All this...on Regular 87 Octane Gas.
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Old 05-09-2013, 10:06 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by M3-SRT8 View Post
Nope. No they don't.

87 Octane Gas has a HIGHER BTU rating.

Higher Octane comes at a cost. That cost is reduced BTUs.
There is little difference in energy content of regular versus premium gasoline. They both contain about 111,400 British Thermal Units of energy per gallon.

http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/...s_premium.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-...ium-gas-2012-9

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...nd-regular-gas
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:29 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by hexnut View Post
There is little difference in energy content of regular versus premium gasoline. They both contain about 111,400 British Thermal Units of energy per gallon.

http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/...s_premium.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-...ium-gas-2012-9

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...nd-regular-gas
Yeah, you're right. There is little difference, but there is a difference. I am splitting hairs.

What I should have pointed out, and what those articles you linked do point out, is that Premium Gas has a slower BURN rate than Regular. That's so it will survive the increased 'squish' of a high compression chamber without preigniting. Premium BURNS SLOWER than Regular. So, when you put Premium Gas in a Regular Gas engine, it burns MORE slower, because it has more room to contend with in a lower compression chamber. It's not as quick a burn as Regular, so, as the piston is going down the cylinder, it's not getting a full expansion of igniting gas within the proper TIME. Therefore you get, as I pointed out, less performance, less mileage, more deposits, etc.

...and, it's costing you more at the pump.

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Old 05-09-2013, 03:10 PM   #83
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Old 05-09-2013, 06:06 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by leakypetcock View Post
Really?
With carbs, yes; E10 can run a full point leaner than non-E.
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:41 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by M3-SRT8 View Post
What I should have pointed out, and what those articles you linked do point out, is that Premium Gas has a slower BURN rate than Regular. That's so it will survive the increased 'squish' of a high compression chamber without preigniting. Premium BURNS SLOWER than Regular.
As already discussed, no it doesn't burn slower.

ONE of those links claims higher octane gasoline burns slower. It's a column by a Cecil Somethingorother. Cecil is wrong.

I see the one link which makes the false claim that higher octane gasoline burns slower to control detonation and raise it four links that say that's not true.

I've seen this basic write up on a couple different race fuel supplier sites.
http://www.whitfieldoil.com/www/docs...p-racing-fuel-
Quote:
Octane number is not related to flame (burn) speed either. Variations in octane quality are independent of flame speed. There are some high octane gasolines in the marketplace with fast flame speeds and some with slow flame speeds. It depends on how they are put together. We prefer fast flame speeds because we know that a properly tuned engine will make more power on this type of gasoline than one that has a slower flame speed.
Another link from a fuel supplier
http://www.pinux-products.com/octane-rating/
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinux products
It should be noted that octane rating does not relate to the energy content of the fuel (see heating value), nor the speed at which the flame initiated by the spark plug propagates across the cylinder. It is only a measure of the fuel’s resistance to autoignition. It is for this reason that one highly branched form, or isomer, of octane (2,2,4-trimethylpentane) has (by definition) an octane rating of 100, whereas n-octane (see octane), which has a linear arrangement of the 8 carbon atoms, has an octane rating of -10, even though the two fuels have exactly the same chemical formula and virtually identical heating values and flame speeds.



Octane rating has no direct impact on the deflagration (burn) of the air/fuel mixture in the combustion chamber. Other properties of gasoline and engine design account for the manner at which deflagration takes place. In other words, the flame speed of a normally ignited mixture is not directly connected to octane rating. Deflagration is the type of combustion that constitutes the normal burn. Detonation is a different type of combustion and this is to be avoided in spark ignited gasoline engines. Octane rating is a measure of detonation resistance, not deflagration characteristics.
Check out Section 6.3 of this university paper:
http://blizzard.rwic.und.edu/~nordli.../gasoline.html
Quote:
The antiknock ability is related to the "autoignition temperature" of the hydrocarbons. Antiknock ability is _not_ substantially related to:-

The energy content of fuel, this should be obvious, as oxygenates have lower energy contents, but high octanes.
The flame speed of the conventionally ignited mixture, this should be evident from the similarities of the two reference hydrocarbons. Although flame speed does play a minor part, there are many other factors that are far more important. ( such as compression ratio, stoichiometry, combustion chamber shape, chemical structure of the fuel, presence of antiknock additives, number and position of spark plugs, turbulence etc.) Flame speed does not correlate with octane.
Last part of section 7.4. No clue who this is but I've never heard of Cecil either
http://www.repairfaq.org/filipg/AUTO/F_Gasoline7.html
Quote:
The normal flame speed is fairly consistent for most gasoline HCs, regardless of octane rating, but the flame speed is affected by stoichiometry.

Sunoco Race Fuels says this:
http://www.racegas.com/article/10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunoco
Naturally aspirated race motors with large combustion chambers spinning at high RPMs really like high-octane, fast burning fuels. They need the octane to prevent uncontrolled combustion, and they need a fast-burning fuel so that the flame front can span the large bore of the combustion chamber quickly. You might be surprised to learn that some of the highest octane fuels may also be some of the fastest burning fuels!
Any opinion can be supported by links to internet sites. But it also makes no sense that a slower burning mixture would be better for controlling detonation. Flame fronts, even fast ones, are a controlled burn, detonation is an explosion. I find it curious that no one who claims a slow burn is better has explained how that fits in with other mods that speed the burn up.

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Old 05-10-2013, 03:29 AM   #86
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Well, that pretty much blew me out of the water...

So, I'll go Back to Basics:

You're waisting your money putting Premium Gas in a Factory-built and tuned engine that calls for Regular.
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Old 05-10-2013, 05:13 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by M3-SRT8 View Post
You're waisting your money putting Premium Gas in a Factory-built and tuned engine that calls for Regular.
i get a average 2.9 more mpg using 93 octane vs 87 octane. see fuelly link for more info..
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Old 05-10-2013, 05:49 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by M3-SRT8 View Post
Well, that pretty much blew me out of the water...

So, I'll go Back to Basics:

You're waisting your money putting Premium Gas in a Factory-built and tuned engine that calls for Regular.
Want some credibility? Do your homework and have sources. And buy a fucking dictionary.

BTW your statement is dependent on the bike's vintage.
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:22 AM   #89
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My fuel purchasing requirements are specifically towards ethanol avoidance rather than octane levels. Fortunately, ethanol free fuel is easy to find in my region, and, that ethanol free fuel is of the higher end of octane levels. Ethanol is evil.

That said, the facts are that higher octane level fuels have as an additive, a flame speed inhibitor, which slows the flame across the combustion chamber, reducing pre-ignition. The side effect, pre ethanol, meant lower fuel economy. With ethanol, and it's reduced BTU, this now means no significant difference in economy between high octane/no ethanol fuel, and, low octane/ethanol fuel.
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:57 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Steve G. View Post
My fuel purchasing requirements are specifically towards ethanol avoidance rather than octane levels. Fortunately, ethanol free fuel is easy to find in my region, and, that ethanol free fuel is of the higher end of octane levels. Ethanol is evil.

That said, the facts are that higher octane level fuels have as an additive, a flame speed inhibitor, which slows the flame across the combustion chamber, reducing pre-ignition. The side effect, pre ethanol, meant lower fuel economy. With ethanol, and it's reduced BTU, this now means no significant difference in economy between high octane/no ethanol fuel, and, low octane/ethanol fuel.

Where do you get this information? I only ask because I make gas for a living. 75,000 Barrels a day. I don't put "additives" in to raise octane. The components are just at a different ratio. You refine crude oil, you get lighter products. Then you refine them further, using a catalyst to reform molecules into Reformate gas. You use hydrofluoric acid to make Alkylate, you use a direct straight run gas, you use another catalyst to crack molecules into FCC gas. So now, you blend these components back into a finished product. You add butane to raise your vapor pressure for easier starting, more in the winter months. You add ethanol to raise octane and get a cleaner burn reducing emissions. There are so many specifications that you must adhere to. Distillation, corrosion, drivability, octane, residue, benzene content, specific gravity.
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