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Old 05-10-2013, 09:28 AM   #91
hillbillypolack
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91 or 93 all the time.

No engine issues in 20+ years.
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:44 AM   #92
jub jub
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Mid Grade or 89 in all three bikes.
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Old 05-10-2013, 07:54 PM   #93
Steve G.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leakypetcock View Post
Where do you get this information? I only ask because I make gas for a living. 75,000 Barrels a day. I don't put "additives" in to raise octane. The components are just at a different ratio. You refine crude oil, you get lighter products. Then you refine them further, using a catalyst to reform molecules into Reformate gas. You use hydrofluoric acid to make Alkylate, you use a direct straight run gas, you use another catalyst to crack molecules into FCC gas. So now, you blend these components back into a finished product. You add butane to raise your vapor pressure for easier starting, more in the winter months. You add ethanol to raise octane and get a cleaner burn reducing emissions. There are so many specifications that you must adhere to. Distillation, corrosion, drivability, octane, residue, benzene content, specific gravity. Listening to the banter here is like masturbating with a cheese grater. Slightly amusing but mostly painful.

Very well, I'm glad you responded. Teach us. Seriously, I really want to know. I appologize right now, and want to know these things.

Does Ethanol have a lower BTU than gasoline? Does this lower BTU reduce fuel economy? If ethanol is used to increase octane, why is it that ALL [except ethanol happy Husky Petroleum] high octane fuels available in Canada are ethanol free? What component is used to raise octane rated fuels where there is no ethanol?
What actually reduces/prevents pre-ignition with 92-94 octane, where pre-ignition is present using 87 octane?
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Old 05-11-2013, 05:30 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Steve G. View Post
What actually reduces/prevents pre-ignition with 92-94 octane, where pre-ignition is present using 87 octane?
If I remember my chemistry at all (I'm not a chemist, I suffered through every chemistry course I ever took) it has to do with the molecule. Hydrocarbons are basically CH3 if they are allowed to line up i.e a C15H32 which is CH3+CH2+CH2....CH3 you you have a line, that line doesn't burn evenly which makes for uneven burning and generally bad juju essentially its to easy to break down the hmolecule. The fuel industry modifies the molecules and makes isomers (along the line of a benzine ring) out of the hydrocarbon molecules, the more surface area that the molecule has the harder it is to break that molecule, and start a reaction ....like burning.

I'm sure leaky can explain it better. But I know it has to do with molecule shapes.
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:35 AM   #95
BikeMan OP
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87 minimum

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i get a average 2.9 more mpg using 93 octane vs 87 octane. see fuelly link for more info..
my mc manual calls for 87 minimum that is a caution, not a specific recommendation. any automotive grade fuel is ok. the best octane fuel for your bike is whichever one gives you the best average mpg. no b.s..
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:45 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by leakypetcock View Post
100% correct!
Thank You, L.P. A man who manufactures gas for a living certainly must know about all this. L.P.'s response was to my post about Premium being a waste of money in an engine tuned for Regular.

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Want some credibility? Do your homework and have sources. And buy a fucking dictionary.
Hey, A.G. You have no call whatsoever addressing me in that fashion.

...and, I searched, in vain, for all my grammatical errors that 'upset' you. Instead of me purchasing a dictionary, you should seek out a tome on manners.

A Tome is a large book, BTW.
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:46 AM   #97
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over 100k with no problems.

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Originally Posted by hillbillypolack View Post
91 or 93 all the time. No engine issues in 20+ years.
same here with over 100k on the clock. the inside of the air box is clean and dry. getting yearly average of 46 mpg and just last week i got a all time high 54.3 mpg. using regular automotive grade fuel with the highest AKI rating. (93 octane)
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Old 05-11-2013, 10:09 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Steve G. View Post
What actually reduces/prevents pre-ignition with 92-94 octane, where pre-ignition is present using 87 octane?
Back when I was studying this stuff at school, pre-ignition was defined as the mixture igniting before the plug fired. This is not the same as detonation/knock. Pre-ignition can lead to detonation but you can have either without the other. (Though if pre-ignition doesn't lead to detonation you'd be hard pressed to know it's happening...) Pre-ignition is often blamed on hot spots due to carbon deposits or exposed plug threads. Higher octane doesn't fix these problems.

Octane rating is related to a fuel's resistance to detonation, not pre-ignition.

I can't tell you the mechanics behind WHY a fuel is more resistant to detonation, it's been too long and I never really cared anyway (Chemistry was not my favorite subject...) The main take away for me was, detonation happens when the unburned mixture auto-ignites because of high temp and pressure. Higher octane fuels resist auto-ignition longer than lower octane fuels, which gives the mixture a longer time to burn normally. Burn it all before it has a chance to explode and you're golden. The more left unburned when the explosion happens, the bigger the shock wave will be when it blows. Which is why the "slower burn" concept makes zero sense in preventing it from happening. You want to burn it fast, not slow it down.

From page 2
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At a given temp and given pressure as seen in an engine, you've got a finite amount of time before the mixture goes bang with no help from a flame front. Call it the delay period. The mixture has to burn fast enough that there's nothing left to explode when the delay period runs out. (Unless of course you're running a diesel, in which case you want to exploit this compression ignition stuff)
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Old 05-11-2013, 02:19 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Steve G. View Post
Very well, I'm glad you responded. Teach us. Seriously, I really want to know. I appologize right now, and want to know these things.

Does Ethanol have a lower BTU than gasoline? Does this lower BTU reduce fuel economy? If ethanol is used to increase octane, why is it that ALL [except ethanol happy Husky Petroleum] high octane fuels available in Canada are ethanol free? What component is used to raise octane rated fuels where there is no ethanol?
What actually reduces/prevents pre-ignition with 92-94 octane, where pre-ignition is present using 87 octane?

I work in the US, but occasionally will blend an export tank. Whenever that happens I curse it because I have to meet higher octane specs, along with lower benzene specs. My refinery is old, commissioned in 1954. We are very old-school in our ways. You are correct in the fact that ethanol isn't added to Canadian fuel (as far as my refinery is concerned) but in the lower 48 it's been added for quite some time.
I can't answer your BTU questions, but I do know that ethanol blended fuels do produce less power and lower economy. We recently began adding ethanol to our truck loading rack, having been the last holdout in the Pacific Northwest. We still sell our 90 octane sub-super in an ethanol-free form and our local stations sell it as a mid-grade ethanol free gas.
To raise octane in an ethanol free blend, you use more of the expensive components. Reformate gas usually comprises about 18% of a blend. Alkylate about the same. Add 13% Butane in the winter months, 6% or less in the summer. Throw in some Straight run gas, which is taken directly off the side of the crude unit from crude oil. This is the least expensive component, therefore it's the most desirable one to use. The last part we add is the FCC gas, which has been broken down by a catalytic cracking process to a manageable formula. Mix it together and you get gasoline. Figure the following (and I'm running from memory here), from most expensive to least expensive.
High Octane Refomate-110 octane but low RVP (Reid Vapor Pressure)
Low Octane Reformate-104 octane, still low RVP
Alkylate Gas-98 Octane- Low RVP
FCC Gas- 91 Octane-Low RVP
Straight Run Gas-80 Octane but High RVP and high benzene.
Butane-89 octane but very high RVP.
Now, you want to blend these components together as cheaply as possible to make the highest amount of money. Figure the Hi-Ref gas costs 2-3 times as much as the straight run. You can see how you would want to minimize the amount of higher cost components to this.
Now you can increase the amount of cheaper stuff, add 10% of very cheap ethanol to bring your octane levels up 1-2 points and gain RIN points (wiki that one) and you can see the allure of ethanol in the US.
There are a bunch of people that are way smarter than I am that give me the recipes and orders that I carry out but I do understand (mostly) how it works.
Probably more questions than answers here but let me know how else I can confuse you and myself!
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Old 05-11-2013, 03:58 PM   #100
anotherguy
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You cannot answer the BTU question yet you profess to know all about tuning motorcycles. Please.

A hint:a good starting point for tuning for methanol is twice the gasoline main jet size. Now what's that tell you?

BTW how's this plug look?


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Old 05-11-2013, 04:07 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anotherguy View Post
You cannot answer the BTU question yet you profess to know all about tuning motorcycles. Please.

A hint:a good starting point for tuning for methanol is twice the gasoline main jet size. Now what's that tell you?

BTW how's this plug look?



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Old 05-11-2013, 05:13 PM   #102
M3-SRT8
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The Ethanol, Gasahol (remember that?) Gasoline controversy is an old one.

A VERY old one:

http://www.environmentalhistory.org/...of-the-future/

An excerpt:

During and after the war, the British Fuel Research Board actively researched military and civilian fuels. W.R. Ormandy in 1918 said that alcohol and coal based fuels could replace oil in the post-war period, and Ormandy noted that only five percent of the American grain crop would meet requirements for a blended fuel.71 The board’s committee on “power alcohol” noted the absence of technical problems a year later, although it concluded that “alcohol cannot compete with gasoline at present prices.”72 Harold B. Dixon, working for the board and other governmental departments, reported in 1920 that higher possible engine compression compensated for alcohol’s low caloric value. A mixture of alcohol with 20 percent benzene or gasoline “runs very smoothly, and without knocking.”73 Also, B.R. Tunnison reported in 1920 the anti-knock effects of alcohol blends in gasoline and said mileage was improved.74

Also, speaking to "Road Tests" as accurate predictors of efficient operation in internal combustion engines, this excerpt, from the early 1920's:

Despite the value of demonstrating the flexibility of technology, road tests proved to be an unreliable index of mileage and thermal efficiency. A German road test of benzene alcohol blends found that the 50 /50 alcohol benzene mixture had 30 percent better mileage than gasoline.78 Because of the unreliability of such road tests, Thomas Midgely in the U.S. and H.R. Ricardo in Britain developed reference engines, indicators, and measuring apparatus for showing the exact extent of knocking. Midgely’s system led to the development of iso-octane as a reference fuel, and eventually, the “octane” system of measuring anti-knock. Ricardo’s work focused in part on testing fuels at various compression ratios up to the point where they would begin knocking, or what he termed the “highest useful compression ratio.” Ethyl alcohol had a 7.5 value, with commercial gasolines then available at 4.5 to 6. Ricardo also developed the Toluene Index, which like “octane” measured anti-knock with a reference fuel. Ricardo concluded that the low burning rate of alcohol lessens the tendency to knock, and that, using toluene as the reference point at 100 anti-knock, alcohol had a 130 rating.

M3-SRT8 screwed with this post 05-11-2013 at 07:32 PM
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Old 05-11-2013, 07:41 PM   #103
leakypetcock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anotherguy View Post
You cannot answer the BTU question yet you profess to know all about tuning motorcycles. Please.

A hint:a good starting point for tuning for methanol is twice the gasoline main jet size. Now what's that tell you?

BTW how's this plug look?




Not what I said at all...and not going to take the bait.
Thanks,
Leaky.
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Old 05-12-2013, 08:24 AM   #104
anotherguy
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So you can't read plugs either?
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Old 05-12-2013, 10:00 AM   #105
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So you can't read plugs either?
It's not just an adventure , it's a job.
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