ADVrider A fuel theory; may be a modern myth
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 05-28-2013, 07:13 PM #1 Frostback OP Frostback   Joined: Sep 2007 Location: Edmonton, Alberta Oddometer: 236 A fuel theory; may be a modern myth I like to watch my gas mileage indicator (2009 R1200 GS) while on trips. The bike always seems to get better mileage during the first 100 miles. I was wondering if the fuel put in the tank cold (about 10 degrees C) expands in the tank as it sits over over a warm engine and behind an oil radiator. If it does expand, the fuel volume indicator called a fuel gauge would indicate less fuel use than is true, and hence, better mileage, right? any engineers out there know what the volumetric expansion of 4 gallons of fuel would be like in moving from 10 C to say 25 C? Lee
 05-28-2013, 09:11 PM #2 Jayrod1318 Poster     Joined: Jun 2011 Location: Here and there and stuff. Oddometer: 1,641 __________________
 05-28-2013, 09:47 PM #3 markjenn Beastly Adventurer   Joined: Nov 2003 Location: Swellvue, WA Oddometer: 10,473 I always thought the computer uses injector pulse width (which can be converted to fuel flow) to compute fuel mileage, not the relatively inaccurate level gauge in the tank. - Mark
05-29-2013, 01:55 AM   #4
AlpineRAM
PartsChaser

Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Europe, Austria
Oddometer: 199
Quote:
 Originally Posted by markjenn I always thought the computer uses injector pulse width (which can be converted to fuel flow) to compute fuel mileage, not the relatively inaccurate level gauge in the tank. - Mark
Yes, it uses the pulse width x fuel pressure x count per distance to calculate the mileage.
But with colder fuel the necessary volume to get the mixture just right is a bit lower because you have a higher fuel density.

 05-29-2013, 05:39 AM #5 Paebr332 Beastly Adventurer   Joined: Apr 2012 Location: Shippensburg, PA Oddometer: 1,366 Most fuel gages are linear or nearly linear, while the tank volume varies in a non-linear fashion from top to bottom.
05-29-2013, 06:47 AM   #6
lnewqban
Ninjetter

Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Florida
Oddometer: 291

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Frostback .........any engineers out there know what the volumetric expansion of 4 gallons of fuel would be like in moving from 10 C to say 25 C?
4.06 gallons, according to this calculator:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/vo...ion-d_315.html

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/cu...ts-d_1262.html

0.06 gallons = 227 cc = 7.7 ounces of increment

05-29-2013, 06:27 PM   #7
ttpete
Rectum Non Bustibus

Joined: May 2009
Location: Dearborn, MI
Oddometer: 6,159
Quote:
 Originally Posted by AlpineRAM Yes, it uses the pulse width x fuel pressure x count per distance to calculate the mileage. But with colder fuel the necessary volume to get the mixture just right is a bit lower because you have a higher fuel density.
The only time fuel density would be considered would be if the system ran in closed loop using a wide band lambda sensor.

Air density is far more important than the very small change in fuel density due to temperature changes, as anyone who has raced two-strokes can tell you.
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2015 BMW R9T, 2010 Ducati 1098 Streetfighter S
2009 Kaw 650 Versys, 1967 Triumph 650 TT Special

05-31-2013, 04:36 PM   #8
High Country Herb

Joined: Apr 2011
Location: Western Sierras
Oddometer: 9,396
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Paebr332 Most fuel gages are linear or nearly linear, while the tank volume varies in a non-linear fashion from top to bottom.
Good explanation. You must be a calculus teacher, or a good student of the subject.

 06-01-2013, 08:15 PM #9 randyo Beastly Adventurer     Joined: Nov 2007 Location: Northern NewEngland Oddometer: 1,807 back in the day, vacuum gauges were calibrated to show fuel economy __________________ RandyO IBA # 9560 07 VeeStrom 99 SV650 82 XV920R A man with a gun is a citizen A man without a gun is a subject
 06-01-2013, 11:15 PM #10 DepthFinder Portly Adventurer     Joined: Apr 2012 Location: TEXAS, Y'ALL! Oddometer: 1,164 MPG indicators don't go off fuel level sensors, they calculate based on load/MAP/INJ PW/Fuel Pressure/Speed sensor. The computer is simply dividing the mileage you cover by the calculated volume of fuel used for whatever given time frame it has ("instantaneous" update where it is averaged for so many seconds, recorded for display, then next average cycle begins a new calculation, or "total average" which is just what it sounds like until manually reset. I don't know of any current bike or auto maker that gives a MPG readout from the fuel level sensor. Many have a dampened calculation from the level sensor for remaining mileage. __________________ Fingers walk the darkness down / Mind is on the midnight Gather up the gold you've found / You fool, it's only moonlight.
 06-02-2013, 07:50 AM #11 Frostback OP Frostback   Joined: Sep 2007 Location: Edmonton, Alberta Oddometer: 236 Depthfinder: It just seems odd to me that a MPG calculation would NOT avail itself of the calculated fuel loss as the level goes down. I wonder if someone whose in-tank fuel strip has gone wonky (not uncommon I am told) could chime in and let us know if the MPG calculations simultaneously go off the rails. Lee
 06-02-2013, 08:25 PM #12 trc.rhubarb Beastly Adventurer     Joined: Nov 2011 Location: Concord, CA Oddometer: 2,052 My 07 R1200GSA has a crazy fuel strip. It works most of the time. DTE is always wacky but MPG is about the same all the time, even if DTE and Fuel Level says I used 8 gallons in 100 miles. __________________ 2007 BMW GS Adventure / 2000 Ducati 900ss / 2010 Harley Ultra Limited / 1975 BMW R90/6 / 2006 DRZ400S Follow me here
 06-05-2013, 09:43 PM #13 DepthFinder Portly Adventurer     Joined: Apr 2012 Location: TEXAS, Y'ALL! Oddometer: 1,164 Tank level is not linear and fuel is sloshing all the time. People ride up and down hills, they accelerate and brake and whip through corners. It might not be enough to throw the fuel gauge loopy (although it will if you've ever seen an undampened/real time fuel gauge, it isn't accurate unless you're stopped or driving on hockey rink) but it can't read high enough resolution to measure a mpg. If you've got a MPG indicator, go unhook your fuel level sensor and see what happens It is so much easier from an engineering standpoint (especially with fixed fuel pressure) to say that size X injector flows Y volume of fuel/ms at P pressure. Now if your pump is regulated to, let's say 45 PSI constant, then you simply have a Y=volume / Distance from vehicle speed sensor. One simple division, at whatever update rate they choose, sent to display. It isn't exact, but usually when it is off, it is off a consistent amount, therefore useful. __________________ Fingers walk the darkness down / Mind is on the midnight Gather up the gold you've found / You fool, it's only moonlight.
 06-05-2013, 10:14 PM #14 Mambo Dave Backyard Adventurer     Joined: Oct 2011 Location: 11 ft. AMSL Oddometer: 5,864 Keep in mind, too, that radiant heat builds up at the carbs or throttle bodies and heats up the air, there, too. This could make later air create less HP, thus reducing fuel mileage. I'm not sure if my DR650 has that issue as much, but everyone I've personally met with a DR-variant (350's, 650's) has noticed that the idle speed gets much higher after everything is really warmed up. So much so that there is no real happy medium - either it isn't going to idle well when cooler (without the choke), or the idle will sound too high to even cagers sitting beside you in traffic once warmed up. All this tells me is that some changes of substance happen when my system warms up. __________________ "After reading through this thread I've come to the conclusion that more people cruise the internet looking for reasons why X bike won't work in Y scenario rather than actually riding their motorcycles." -- RyanR
 06-06-2013, 06:45 AM #15 Frostback OP Frostback   Joined: Sep 2007 Location: Edmonton, Alberta Oddometer: 236 Ahhh. . . It took a little while for the engineers to show up in force but a convincing case now appears for the MPG metering to be coming from fuel flow and not tank volume. thanks, Lee

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